Posts made by Jeshin

@Thenomain

It is worth noting that when I made that statement I was referring to stories within text-based games, though I do believe that death & loss play a big part in all story telling. We likely have a fundamental difference of opinion on the topic. That being said it's still worthwhile to expand on this a little.

In normal storytelling like movies and literature and ancient stories/folklore death and loss play a huge part in the narrative. The majority of the time the main character(s) aren't at risk of death because they are the vehicle for the story. I would argue though that death and loss still exist within the world. We are meant to suspend disbelief and accept that there is danger and that is why sacrifice and heroism matter in them. I'll point to Agent Caulson in the Avengers, Boromir in Lord of the Rings, and the death of Aerith in Final Fantasy 7 which is notable because it's in a game with bringing people back is a function of gameplay. These are non-main characters whose deaths enriched stories and established that death was reality of the world that their story was being told in. Regardless of whether or not the Main Character was really going to die, within the story, they -could- die. Thus the trick and the suspension of disbelief.

In text-based games and their storytelling I believe that death & loss are even more crucial. Unless you take the tact that all PCs are main characters and thus should be exempt from that and if you do then that is your decision (or that of the game runner). I certainly won't say you shouldn't do it only that I believe there would be more value in having the threat. I'll use two games as examples.

The Sea of Storms (wheel of time setting) has perma-death but fighting between PCs tends to be resolved via RP like MUSHes with a staffer judging or players collaboratively completing the scene. If there is a disagreement there is coded combat which can be fallen back onto on the agreement of the participants. I actually staffed on this game for the better part of a decade and I can tell you the average character lifespan was something like 2-6 ooc years. But death was possible. It did happen. It wasn't willy nilly and it didn't require consent to happen. It worked pretty well for the stories we were telling there. (note this is another game that would probably be a good middle-ground for MUSH players). What mattered is that it -could- happen and thus it added tension and motivation to scenes and actions taken.

Sindome (cyberpunk setting) this game has perma-death but in my opinion it is extremely difficult to actually die. You see it has cloning as a game mechanic so as long as characters have the money they can keep updating their clones. There is a risk that the clone will degrade but that can be rectified for a small fortune. It is also possible to be killed before you manage to update your clone (which is extremely difficult to do and requires amazing timing and organization) or you can be killed so many times you go broke and no one is willing to help you out and die due to lack of updating the clone. I think you can recognize that while this game technically has perma-death it is a narrative rarity (just like traditional storytelling) for it to happen over the course of normal game play. What matters is that the specter and reality of it exist within the world and provide weight to decisions.

• Why do you believe non-consent death detracts from storytelling in text-based games? I mean there are just as many characters (not main ones) who die in tales for the purpose of story progression as those who live for the purpose of story progression.

• If I said death has to be possible but not probable would that change our disagreement as it pertains to text-based games? Like sindome perma-death is possible but improbable under normal circumstances.

• I apologize for coming off as overly comfortable. I enjoy this community and you guys (out of all other places I've come to share OR with) have engaged me the most in interesting discussion. I will try and curb being overly familiar as I don't mean to come off as arrogant or belittling.

I'll end this reply with the repeating statement that I encourage all text-based games (even though that don't fit our 3 qualifiers) to promote themselves on Optional Realities and that while I have preferences and in the formation of the community we made some decisions which are exclusionary. We do not intend for that exclusion to go past a link list. I hope my continued involvement in this community and support for games that aren't listed will help convey that sentiment. I love text-based gaming, even if it's not how I would design the game myself.

Optional Realities listings are not for games that people with a MUD background will enjoy. Optional Realities listing is purely and solely for any game which falls under our definition of text-based RPGs. While this does create situations where much more advanced MUSHes don't qualify due to no automation it does create a consistent experience and expectation for users who are going to Optional Realities for a game listing instead of discussion or the articles.

All the games have at least those 3 qualities and they have them in varying degrees.

EDIT - And to say it again. Not having 1 of those qualities doesn't make you a bad game or a game unworthy of our attention. I hope my discussions on this board have at least imparted that Optional Realities is very interested in any text-based game even if it doesn't qualify for listing. It's just a decision we made in order to keep from becoming a general listing site like MUDPortal, TMC, TMS, etc etc.

Yes I believe it is correct that at this time Optional Realities would not be listing a lot of games. I have hope however that times and experience in the genre might lead to more games falling under the tent we have set out. As my prime example I approached Asherat from Kushiel's Debut prior to the opening of Optional Realities to see if that game would "qualify". It didn't at the time but when I stopped back in earlier this month there appears to be some consideration of adding coded support / automated systems due to the influx of players they have experience.

With this addition (whatever it is, they didn't share their plans with me beyond considering it) it'd be right up on the OR website probably within 24 hours. Regardless of being listed with a sub-forum MUSHes, MOOs, and MUX are more than welcome to come and post up a listing in our General Discussion sub-forum or Other Game thread. I encourage you to do so.

EDIT - Quick addition here since I went back to my records to pull the conversation I had with Brody from Otherspace before listing him. As you can see, we're not really requiring a MUSH to convert to a MUD.

@Brody / Otherspace said:

Blurb: OtherSpace, online since 1998, is an original-theme space opera that’s followed a series of evolving story arcs shaped by player actions.

1. We've got permadeath.
2. We've got CSpace for travel among the stars, a crafting system, and a referee-assisted dice rolling system that calculates skills and difficulty modifiers.
3. We're almost entirely focused on roleplay.

Hey,

As per the Optional Reality thread in Advertisements. I have been on a quest to broaden my horizons in the text-based genre so that I can bring that back to development and design discussion on the OR Community. I have tried Otherspace (briefly), Kushiel's Debut (2 months), and Sindome (technically a MOO for 2 months). I need some MUSHes to go try to really be able to experience the genre like the rest of you have or at least get a fair approximation.

I only have about 10-15 hours per week to dedicate to these beyond my other projects so that may be a factor, I am not sure.

@Rook

The debate of roll-playing and role-playing still exists on MUDs, the addition of automation doesn't preclude it for us. As to usage of the word fair! I did specify to an extent. No automated system would ever be truly fair just like it's debatable that MUSH Judges are always thought to be fair as there is an appeal and review process involved.

I would argue that people who play MUDs do so with the understanding that code arbitration is the ultimate decider unless a Staffer intervenes and thus because it is an accepted feature of the game by those who play it would be "fair" in the sense that it has no inherent bias. Just like people who play MUSHes understand that Judge arbitration is the ultimate decider unless a Staffer intervenes (assuming not all Judges are Staff) and thus because it is an accepted reality of the game by those who play it would be "fair" to them despite the potential of bias.

That being said! I have tried several MUSHes and I actually intend to try a few more. They have been generally great experiences and I am a fan of the nWoD system even though I wouldn't implement it on my own game. I would encourage anyone who is interested in learning more about roleplay on MUDs to try one of the games listed here: http://optionalrealities.com/connections/

Your past experience might hold true with these games. Your perceptions might be proven true. Then again you might find an experience that is enjoyable and a change of pace from your MUSH experiences. I find MUSHes to be an enjoyable change of pace to RPIs.

EDIT - If you're looking for a middle-ground between MUSH & MUD I would suggest... Sindome (MOO), Burning Post II (MUD), or HavenRPG (MUD). I believe these games would be the easiest cultures and setups to try if you aren't interested in a more MUD like experience you'd get from Shadows of Isildur (MUD) or Armageddon (MUD)

Do you crave Fallout Lore?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvqm_pPD-aQ&list=PL7pGJQV-jlzD17YNNbt103xp0PkkUCoPU

Do you crave the actual development document that was used for the original fallout games?

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Design_document

Hey,

So it's important to clarify that we are not discounting the quality or storytelling potential of text-based RPGs that lack one of our 3 defining qualities. It is just that they do not fall under the purview of games which we would list and give a sub-forum. We have a thread and sub-forum for discussing text-based games in general and article contributions can certainly come from them as well.

@Rook

Yes what you are describing is how some MUDs would handle it. Although support for cover, vnpcs in the room, hiding, so on and so forth can and have been coded into systems in the past. I would also propose that MUDs provide "coded support & automation" exactly for the sake of the story being told. It provides an ultimate and fair arbitration to an extent. So where we remove the risk of god-moding or arguments about results we take on the risk of bad roleplayers trying to abuse the system to win. Whereas on MUSHes I would speculate that you support roleplay and take on the risk that people will ignore or fudge the system to win. In my experience nWoD (for example) is a fairly easy system to break. There's websites with the dice roll statistics and everything basically laying out the optimal way to approach distribution of points and so on so forth.

@Three-Eyed-Crow

Based on this webpage and assuming I am reading it correctly. This game would qualify as having "coded support & automated systems" and thus would only need to be roleplay focused and support perma-death to be listed on Optional Realities. I cannot stress enough that we are not asking for MUSHes to become MUDs to be listed. We are simply stating that we believe some automation improves the player experience and if a game staff agrees and applies automation where they feel is appropriate than we can look at it and decide if it is enough to be listed.

For example Otherspace (currently only MUSH listed) does not have automated combat. It has other automated features like space travel for example.

Also Tempest is correct. Coded support would be things like being able to use a track command that checks your +sheet stats and produces an appropriate output message like. Jane's tracks lead to the north! Crafting code support would be another where there are a lot of tiers of crafting but on a most basic level crafting code support would just be the ability to produce an item that is derived from your +sheet statistics and skills in such an art.

So instead of putting in a +job to have a vase made. I could make a vase and its quality/value would be determined by some algorithm which is derived from my characters attributed abilities or +roll results.

That might be my MUD centric perspective affecting my terminology. By coded support we mean the following:

1. If I do a dice roll and you do a dice roll, the damage is applied automatically or the affect is applied automatically. So for an example let us use Kushiel's Debut.

+roll/willpower Presence+Socialize (to distract you with body language and conversation)

I roll with Exceptional Success and you perhaps counter-roll and lose. You then receive a message like: You are distracted by <target>

^ That right there is what I would consider the bare minimum definition of "coded support" or "automation". A system which applies the results of actions to the players without allowing them to ignore it or requiring a judge to tell them what happened. Now could they ignore it? Sure but the fact that the system exists and informs them of their current state is "coded support"

2. An example of combat "coded support" would be...

+roll/specialty strength+dexterity (longsword specialty to strike you)

You do an opposing roll and I win out. Apply the damage automatically and allow the participants to narrate how things are playing out.

So when I am discussing "coded support" I don't mean the tools and systems which allow people to roll and stuff. I am basically alluding to automation because the code is supporting the results of the tools you are using. Please note I only used Kushiel's Debut as an example. Their code does not auto send messages or auto-apply damage to my knowledge.

Hey,

This question has been raised on our own community forum and it is certainly a valid one. After all roleplay focused games are traditionally more MUX/MOO/MUSH oriented and requiring automated or coded support excludes the lions share of them. So why do it? The honest answer is that we believed that coded support in some form is beneficial to the final product of the game and since we cannot be all things to all people we had to provide a qualifier so we don't list every single MUX/MOO/MUSH in existence. Just like perma-death is often difficult for MUDs that aren't RPIs to achieve. Thus we do not list every single MUD in existence with an emote/pose function. We will let TMC/TMS and broader communities handle such things.

That being said there is a difference between being listed on Optional Realities and being a user or contributor to the website. While I won't list a MUSH that lacks any coded support what so ever, I will engage in discussion about that game until my hands lose feeling in them. I believe that the development discussions and general cultural discussions across genres on the community forums are still valuable and there is no requirement for the users to be MUDers or believe in coded systems or even believe in perma-death!

So while the listings are exclusive to an extent, the community is open to all, and I think this thread alone is a good example of the kind of discussions we'd want on the OR Community boards. To wit I provide 3 links, because I like the number 3.

http://optionalrealities.com/forums/index.php?topic=25.0 --- Someone asking about why Optional Realities and why the restrictive requirements.

http://optionalrealities.com/forums/index.php?topic=113.0 --- A thread about why create a MUD (or text-based game) in 2015 considering all the competition. I believe this would benefit from contributions from more MUSH centric players.

http://optionalrealities.com/forums/index.php?topic=29.0 --- A thread discussing roleplay cultures and their effect on game design and also how to incentivize them with game design or discourage them with the same.

It is worth noting that Otherspace created by Brody does qualify because of the couple of automated systems it does have as well as RP focus (like most MUSHes) and perma-death support.

http://otherspace.enjin.com/home

So it doesn't have to be all!

You know it only now occurs to me to comment on this but....

• If you are a roleplay focused game.

• If you have automated system(s): this can include crafting, exploration, combat, medical code, etc etc. Doesn't have to be all but you have to have one or two.

• If you have perma-death defined as the ability for story, characters, or the environment being able to kill off your character permanently without your consent.

Than you too can be listed on Optional Realities and I shall traverse the internet for you as well! I know that list may seem controversial but all of the games (including the 2 Moos and 1 MUSH) share those traits giving our users a guideline for what they can expect.

I wrote an article on it over here: http://optionalrealities.com/optional-realities-an-introduction-2/

Note: Please do not look to much into the lack of MUSH being commented on in the opening article. I'll need to send the editor to go add that right in, that was an oversight. We love MUSHes too.

Actually I think the theme preceded the system in the case of Usurper. I know on Project Redshift that is how it worked for us.

The classical heroes journey is predicated on a main character. Other significant characters (almost) always die in such tales. In text-based games it would seem difficult to reconcile entire playerbases all being the main character of their own heroes journey.

I mean I know of 3 MUSHes with perma-death (which I've played to some extent or another). Do most of them not support this feature/element?

The possibility of permanent and real death or loss is part and parcel with conflict. Frodo doesn't have to die but the threat of death is important to his story. His bravery and sacrifice means less if it's presumed both within the story itself and by the reader that there is no chance he can or would die.

EDIT - Good chance to briefly plug the only text-based game to have the official approval of the Tolkien estate to run with its IP: http://www.middle-earth.us/

I played EvE online for several years though I wouldn't rate its RP as any more impressive than RP centric MUDs in my experience with both. CVA did give it a pretty good try though. To use a touchstone as an example...

EvE online would be a hack and slash MUD with RP elements. It wouldn't be comparable to most RP focused games in the genre as perma-death is a fairly crucial feature (in my opinion) of storytelling.

@Thenomain

Elrum Irofel was a bard in Tuluk (desert fantasy setting without metal, low magick, low tech like bone swords and limited water). He was born a bard of the Circle which was basically an organization/family group of bards. He performed and learned history until he was promoted to Seeker. During auditions for people to try and become bards like himself a Masterbard hinted that the nobility had bribed the panel of judges to rig the contest. Elrum told his patron and he was banished from the Circle when his patron threatened to murder a masterbard in response.

Afterwards Elrum became a hunter and trained citizens of his city on how to defend themselves and be volunteer soldiers. He did this in hopes that it would help him win his way back into the Circle. He led patrols of players into the Grey Forest which is an area with resources for crafting and medicine making and so on so forth that had a deadly insect like race in it with poisons that made them codedly very dangerous. The patrols were regular and RPed out and we codedly killed quite a few kryl. Changes were made to the game world based on our efforts, editing kryl spawning points and so on so forth.

Anyway after 3 months of RPTs (recommended play times these are like group events) Elrum was back in the circle but now a powerful merchant house claimed he owed them an incredibly large sum of money for slighting them at one of his training RPTs. Thus he barded it up and performed for nobility and commoners a like receiving large payments for his services to buy himself out of debt.

He wound up being banished permanently and a broken man who regretted a lot of choices in his life. This was all done as a blend between coded systems and collaborative roleplay over the course of 14 months (which is how long I had the character before he died) He was generated at age 16 and died at like age 28-30.

I see that the MMO = MUD perception is pretty strong.

I would ask that you have faith that in the current RPI community that collaborative storytelling exists and is very strongly encouraged. We just build it upon a foundation of coded systems which we believe provide a consistent and immersive environment which improves roleplay (in our opinion) just like you find free posing to be a superior approach.

I am very curious though, could any of you describe a quick scene of what you think RPI/MUD roleplay looks like?

Would you agree MUSH challenges, puzzles, random scenes rely on at least one person in the room being a competent storyteller?

If yes than would it not stand to reason that the experience might be more rewarding if a talented storyteller crafted it and it was executed as part of the world which could be enjoyed by anyone at any time?

I know that -sounds- MMO like but this is just a hypothetical question and not percisely how an RPI would handle things.

Yeah, I agree that grinding is not exactly RPs best friend. It's something we're addressing in our development phase. That being said MUDs like Burning Post II are likely closer to MUSHes as they operate on RPXP which is gained during scenes and by emote/pose. They have coded functions but they have threaded commands which integrate with emotes.

Basically if I emote a combative action, with a special symbol in front of ~cleave (or something like that) it will enact the code. It's one of the games listed on our site, Orpheus is a great staffer. Big softie.