In the vein of advertisement (and poor timing which led to an article and a Project Redshift release coming on the same day) I'd be super interested in any feedback on this setting document or you might just find it an interesting read or you might totally hate it. Positive or Negative feedback welcome.
This is Project Redshift: Seedship Culture & Structure Documentation
Back when I played Ernest before RL stole me away. They had 12 or less online and primarily alts. Now they're pushing 25 - 35+ which is a great turnaround. I was really very impressed. You're a godsend to your game.
I'm unsure how I've looked down my nose at the community. I've shared my opinions and asked questions. People shared their opinions and asked questions. If there is any presumed tone than I apologize but lets look at some actions I've taken?
I have begun the process of including another MUSH to Optional Realities because it looks interesting and fits the listing requirements.
I have plugged musoapbox on Optional Realities. Here and Here because I think it'd benefit people to come read this community board.
I've started a thread to get some MUSH suggestions for me to try out
I've added some games from the suggestions thread to the Other Game thread on OR right here
I have a differing opinion from some (or most) of you. I've never said you're wrong or your games are bad. I've not attempted to insult any of you. I can only assume that the double special irony is going to be that @Sunny is a staffer (or owner) of Kushiel's Debut?
@Sunny
**
Why am I here?**
Because it said musoapbox and my initial impression was that it was appropriate to discuss all MUs of which MUDing is one of them. I stay because generally I find the discussion positive even if I do get the vibe I am unwanted no one has been outright rude or anything.
Are you Doing it Wrong?
Newp and I haven't asked anyone to change their game. But the truth of the matter is some MUSHes (not the majority) do fall within the purview to be listed. I found one because of this website, so as I said big thank you.
The but in my statements
The OR staff agreed on the criteria for listing games on the website and they extend solely to the listing. This criteria doesn't extend to the community discussion. I have enjoy the discussions here and it's certainly opened me up to some interesting games which I'm pursuing. There is a reason I keep inviting people to the community to share in discussions. Optional Realities isn't a listing site. It's meant to be a community site and varying viewpoints help in discussion. Thus the but. I like MUSHes as a whole but I won't list games that don't meet the criteria because if I make an exception for MUSHes I have to make an exception for MUDs and then we become a TMC/TMS website.
As to community cross over. Yup I said feel free to plug your games on OR (because it'd be a new source of potential players) but in the same vein I've plugged musoapbox over there a couple of times. I'm not aiming to steal away users but I am interested in some MUD/MUSH cross thought exchange thus my encouragement
The Skinny
I like the community, some of the threads are pretty interesting, and I certainly am interested in exploring more MUSHes. If this particular thread is inappropriate or becoming offensive than I can cut it and just participate in other facets of the community. Let me know, I'm a big boy, you can use the 4 letter words on me.
EDIT - Actually small Irony. It was Sunny's Kushiel Debut thread which led me to this forum as I was doing research on their keyword hits within google because they recently had an explosion in players.
Huh, that's pretty interesting. So basically a lot of MUSHes are running their own "codebase" in a sense.
If you're familiar with DIKU from MUDs and how it's basically one of the parent codebases of the majority of games under the MUD banner. Would you say that the WoD codebase is similar in nature as it appears to be the most widely used and modified base for MUSHes?
Presto!
We have one MUSH in the pipeline to be listed on Optional Realities! Big thank you to the people who provided me with lists of them in the other thread.
I don't have anything against MUSHes. What I have is limited experience with them. I very much consider MUSHes as much a part of "text-based gaming" as I would consider Zork a part of text-based gaming or any game which is fundamentally text-based. I have my preference and I certainly haven't tried to hide it but I've also tried to expand my understanding of other branches of the genre too.
SmaugFUSS is under active development just like PennMUSH but they are legacy engines. Evennia is an example of a new engine that can be used for MUDs or MUSHes and I find it encouraging that someone is developing for a more general approach to the medium. I comment on FutureMUD being good even if MUDs aren't your thing because it shows there is still passion in creating new codebases for the community.
As you know from ( http://optionalrealities.com/forums/index.php?topic=22.0 ) I have PennMUSH listed right up there with the others as that is an engine I am familiar with and knew was still being supported. As for games that you play we do have Otherspace (which I thought was a much bigger splash in the MUSH community than it was) and I hope to include Kushiel's Debut soon! And I am actually looking through the MUSHes I was listed on another thread to see if any of them would qualify as is because "code supported" can mean a lot of things.
EDIT - If there are any new MUSH centric codebases being created that are open source, please provide the links here and I will make sure they are listed like everyone else!
Would you prefer Creator of FutureMUD? Coder of FutureMUD? Dude behind FutureMUD?
Japheth is the Creator of FutureMUD a next generation engine for the development of MUDs (Not sure on flexibility on creating MUSHes)! It's all in the name, he's got a gift for it. Find out more about the engine and about his journey developing it right here on Optional Realities! If MUDs aren't your thing you can at least take solace that new engines are still being created for text-based gaming!
http://optionalrealities.com/designing-a-more-customisable-mud-engine/
Thank you everyone whose given me feedback and suggestions. I think I'm going to try EldritchMUSH first because of their death policy and it gives me the vibe that it'll be a comfortable transition for me. I'll continue to play Kushiel's Dart as well since I made commitments over there.
Probably try one of the super hero themed ones next, not that anyone will particularly care but I felt I owed letting people know where I went with all their suggestions.
Quick Additional Question:
Is there a reason the majority of the underlying systems for these games are nWoD / WoD? Is it because of the very graceful way that that RPG system approaches incentivizing RP? Is it just something that started and kind of stuck in the community?
Quick Addition
When I encourage you guys to advertise and participate in development discussions on Optional Realities, it is because a lot of these topics get brought up. For example overnight while I slept someone brought up how in some games there's an unrealistic (and thus poor RP form) of grinding going on because people become fixated on their stats whether it is a # or a descriptor word. The presumption is that changing the way you display +sheet/score/skill list information to a player can help curb this issue in games that have grinding code progression. Obviously one of the biggest issues is that it has grinding code progression! Still might be an interesting look and benefit from a more MUSH centric view point that isn't steeped in traditional MUD approaches.
I would say you're looking at more 60 - 90 minute and eating once during that time span. For Armageddon at least. Otherwise you are correct.
The grind associated with the current RPI offerings is also that bad yes. This has to do with no real economy in their games or a broken one and what I believe is a simplistic approach to character code progression.
say (reaches up and scratches the side of his cheek whilst listening to his companion. Afterwards he politely folds his hands in his lap before replying) No that is true, though SOI: Laketown has emote/pose which allow " " within it just like free posing on MUSHes. Armageddon has emotes and poses as well but you cannot speak within them because they haven't implemented " " code that identifies your spoken language.
I am not familiar with what munchkins are. Do you mean that SOI supports pregnancy and everything? Do you mean they allow kid characters?
As to RPI marketing tactics they are just that. Advertisement and marketing. While I personally haven't done the whole we're the best way to experience roleplay banner ad or anything. I would also argue that all of our respective approaches to text-based gaming have billed themselves as the best approach at one time or another. So yeah they've said it and they probably believe it too!
For my part as an RPI developer, I will say a lot of your concerns will hopefully be less applicable to Project Redshift because we are developing on Evennia and do not have legacy DIKU issues because of it. Also we're billing our game as a "Professional RPI" because the staff is paid. In our marketing phase I will try and restrain myself from implying Redshift is the Jesus of text-based gaming, but people love what they love and they can get carried away.
As to automated systems, I agree to an extent, that coded systems do not represent all possibilities and cannot. As I noted a little further up on TSOSmud the accepted method of player conflict was collaborative emote/pose with a staff judge if one was needed or coded combat if that was choosen. I staffed on such a game for 10 years and while I believe coded systems can add to the experience and immersion I do not think they are always the best first choice options.
Does coded systems limit imagination? Perhaps it could. I have never personally felt myself limited by coded systems and my imagination. If I need to do something beyond the coded system, I do it. They are there as a base foundation (in my opinion) and not an end all be all.
Example from Armageddon MUD - Disgraced Bard wants to cut himself because his wife died. He opts to slit a wrist and I can easily wish up to staff and ask to be set with a declining HP. This provides a clock by which I will die at the end. That isn't technically code supported but it can be setup. Conversely I could just RP the entire thing out, quit, and send in a request to have my character stored or killed to represent the culmination of my roleplay.
I should also note (again) that Otherspace has space travel and crafting coded. That is it. It qualifies for our "automated systems" requirement to be listed. So when I am discussing coded support and automated systems I don't mean combat has to be automated per se. I personally like it being automated and we are doing it for Project Redshift: Read Senior Dev Jaunt Discuss Immersive Combat Design
I already typed all that up before your edit so I will leave it in....
Character story benefits from strong willed and creative players who are able to tell those stories without the benefit of an external influence. I agree. I also agree that the death of one characters in a 2 character relationship could be a huge character development for 1 of them but that's 50% less RP overall.
Sometimes players get scared though. They get overly attached. They become complacent. They need a helping hand. It is here that coded systems can really assist them by giving feedback and stimulus outside their own thoughts which they can seize onto and run with. Oh I made a mistake and a buck gored me... What can I do roleplay wise with this unfortunate turn of evenets? Oh I accidentally bought to many mugs of beer. Hey there's a dude over there, I'll give one to him and chat him up. Oh traveling from this city to the next city over is codedly very dangerous. Let me plan ahead and possibly hire other people to escort me and interact with them.
Could all of it be accomplished without code. You bet! Does having code sometimes help and prompt players into doing things they may not have thought of themselves. I think so.
So I don't think you will find it surprising it I were to say that the existence and possibility of perma-death itself is the contributor to story. When a character dies that is the end of a story and only a potential starter to a new story that branches from their death. It's certainly not a sure thing, but...
Let us suppose I am playing a disgraced Bard who has a wife that is not exactly socially noteworthy in society. They are both hunters but disgraced bard is the better hunter and his wife can't quite take on the game he does but she tries sometimes. Because this game has pema-death and because his wife is taking risky actions it is possible that she could die. He would be bereft, she is all he has left, and this motivation and fear is what drives actions and decisions he make. It basically informs his story. Lets say they make a promise to each other to hunt together but she goes out alone because she's an independent woman who chafes under restrictions. She gets injured and she can't hide it from disgraced bard. Now there is conflict and character development. Both characters have desires, they have fears, disgraced bards fear is firmly rooted in the possible death of his wife which fuels the conflict and development of his character.
That is a fairly accurate summary of the last 3 months of my Armageddon MUD bard characters life. I feel like it's at least one example of how perma-death adds tension and motivation to interactions. Now if the wife had died then yeah. As a player I would have been like nooooooooooooooooo take my right hand to bring this character back because I enjoy our interactions. But it is exactly that danger and loss which made the relationship so immersive (for me) in the first place.
So different strokes for different folks but I can go on and on about the potential benefits of perma-death to text-based gaming.
EDIT - Because I am a little tired I will TLDR this post because I fee like I may have went off on a tangent...
TLDR - The possibility of perma-death adds more to the story experience than the actual perma-death event itself. If I knew how to perform the literary trick of invoking the specter of death without the possibility of it within text-based gaming in a reliable manner. I wouldn't believe the actual death part would be needed. As such a feat is beyond me (or any game I have yet to play) I believe that perma-death has to be on the table in order to contribute its benefits to the story.
http://www.gog.com/games##sort=bestselling&price=u10&page=1
GoG always has fairly cheap (10 and under) games that are great titles and no DRM. Also their summer sale normally comes around the same time as steams.
Hey,
So I think we (or at least I) am coming to the end on this particular exchange. I think I have a pretty good gauge on the concern and the disagreement so I shall go ahead and sum it all up likely just looping back to my original statements.
Perma-death is a qualifier because we (the OR staff) believe that it is beneficial for a text-based RPG to have this. Whether it's common or uncommon, it has to be on the table (for us). This also helps somewhat narrow the # of games we are listing to prevent us from becoming a TMS/TMC competitor. This does exclude many and I do mean many good games and I will not even hint that they are less of a quality game because they lack perma-death. I will only say that I cannot/will not list them on Optional Realities. Still welcome to come advertise on our forums and participate in all manner of design discussions though!
I agree that if game setting has some form of after-life or reincarnation mechanic (see DnD) then it's appropriate to pass on perma-death from a game design and story perspective.
I am not currently aware of a roleplay focused game that precludes loss. It is such a fundamental element of storytelling that it goes without saying. There are roleplay focused games without perma-death. Thus why one is listed and not the other, but after consideration I'll review the 3rd qualifier to see if it should be added for the sake of being clear.
If anyone else wants to chime in on this, I'll certainly continue to respond but I feel like @Thenomain and I have at least come to understand each others positions. Maybe? Okay I feel like I understand his.
I do have a new question though!
I ask because I'm reading about Eldritch and Reno at the moment and at least one of them openly states a lack of metaplot. I know Kushiel's Debut has a metaplot so how common/uncommon or wanted/unwanted is that sort of thing in the MUSH community?
The qualifier says perma-death because loss is presumed but in my previous statement on page 3? I referred to it as death and loss then in your reply you took out loss (because we both agreed that is vital to storytelling). I was re-affirming that death and loss are both important!
I agree that non-consent death does not ensure a good story as well. It is a requirement to be listed but we don't assume that any game with perma-death will be good at storytelling. For example you could have a game that was essentially Dark Souls but when you died, you didn't come back at the last save point sans souls. I wouldn't think that was good storytelling unless someone really brilliant created a setting around that kind of experience.
I'm not trying to appease you! If I were I'd probably have changed the requirements 2 pages back in this thread Often in debates about game design and storytelling I try and establish a point where both parties agree so I can better understand the variance between my original statement (which was disagreed with) and the new statement (which both parties can agree on). Helps with understanding, for me anyway.
Some more questions!
I see on RenoMUSH (which is one of the ones suggested to me) that characters can blow up a bus full of nuns. In reading the game policies it appears there is no comment on death. Is perma-death possible on RenoMUSH?
If perma-death is possible can you give me an example of what it might look like? (assuming you're involved with RenoMUSH or have played there).
If I said that perma-death does not ensure quality storytelling but I believe it adds to story within text-based games would you agree with that?