Posts made by Lotherio

@kk Try weaving as an alternative. I was taught to sew my own stuff at home then in the military, but I enjoy weaving sometimes (but I'm also an artist/teacher so I may be inclined to enjoy these sort of things).

@selira said in Something Completely Different:

Again, you can spin this in your head however you want, but that's what happened. Administration that was widely seen as unjust led to protest, which led to bans, and the combination of the two led to people walking.

We're actually in agreement on this, mostly. They no prior warning thing is questionable. Gany has shown that when she asks something to stop she means it. The only thing different this time is the vocal majority though they could skirt the line from my perspective.

I'm not spinning anything in my head. What went down wasn't pretty all around and I'm voicing that opinion, it doesn't look as good as some folks want to think it does. Majority or otherwise.

@selira said in Something Completely Different:

authoritarian stomp down on anyone who expressed disagreement

This is part of where we are in disagreement. It was a 'hey can we stop this until I talk with another admin to get a handle' and then it kept going, and going, and was still going even this week.

@misterboring We agree to disagree. The vocal majority that recently left wasn't the vocal majority when they started here. They were a minority that got some changes to take place. They changes didn't favor them now.

@Selira The thing is, no clique drove anyone away, it was bad acting under some conduct they help get in place a few years ago.

@seraphim73 said in Something Completely Different:

Those who participate in the community are the community when the community is about participating. (Is that a tautology? I think that's a tautology, but I think it got the point across). I'm not saying that there can't be a community here that grows and even flourishes with a number of vocal participants having departed, I'm just saying that when the majority of the vocal participants leave a community, it's not the same community anymore.

I've been here as part of the community and I didn't leave when a lot of old friends left a few years back. Some of them are still around and have a voice. It just isn't as vocal as a number that have left. There are a lot of folks here who still talk with each other in PM/DM or discord and have hopes for this place. I'm not silent and haven't been, I haven't posted much this last year but I've been here.

I don't think that it's helpful to compare those who left to Germans in the '30s and '40s, nor to compare those who left to those pushing The Big Lie about the 2020 US Presidential election.

I'm not saying anyone is a Nazi or a pusher of the Big Lie. I'm saying vocal majority of a community isn't whole representatino of a community. I'm not on the slippery slope trying to say because they have a voice of opposition they're Nazi's or part of the small vocal majority putting out Big Lie or replacement theory ideas. Not by a long shot. You keep suggestion I am saying everyone who left is similar. Again, many of those who left are people I like.

@misterboring said in Something Completely Different:

@lotherio said in Something Completely Different:

Gany is following this will of the people

Would you say that the will of the people is represented by a vocal majority?

I can't speak of modern politics to point out how the most vocal lost the last election through all the lies, that gets very political. I would say no, the vocal majority is not the will of all the people. There is still now and always has been a greater silent majority around MSB. Some of those recently banned are the ones that asked for the civil decorum and moderation, I supported it with them then. I still support it now.

Gany hasn't maliciously gone after anyone here, despite how any vocal majority might want to paint it. The perception is that they said, hey lets stop this until staff can review it. It was clearly laid out, but the line was skirted.

@tnp said in Something Completely Different:

At some point, and this is just my impression, this became @Ganymede 's board and people could either like it or leave. I make no comment on whether that's a good or bad thing but it seems like the custodians have become the staff.

Exactly this. It didn't mystically become 'Ganymede's board', when Gany started they were like prior staff. Stewards to make sure the place ran and the lights stayed on and the heat mostly worked, and on the side to keep out the really bad apples too. The vocal majority started asking for staff to become like staff and be more active in moderating, attacks and negativity to the hog pit, fork threads, be more active, leaving the outside the hogpit for constructive criticism, civil debates and peace and decorum. And it was said in response by custodians then, if that's the will if the people so it shall be. Gany is following this will of the people and the vision of a few others as even they have pointed out. From my perspective at least.

@kalakh said in Something Completely Different:

Furthermore, I've got some serious objections to the widespread idea that it's more important for there to be peace and decorum than it is to address genuine issues. That is a form of silencing, to expect someone who has been harmed to just be quiet about it to avoid disturbing the perception that everything is okay. It is not weaponizing victimization to point out that you have been harmed, or who harmed you

I appreciate this and again to point out, before you joined the community, there was political shake up and a push for these very things (peace and decorum through moderation) by the very people you may be defending, not saying you are defending but its perceived that way. Some of the recent folks banned pushed for this form of silencing, and the old large group that left 3-4 years ago said exactly the same thing you are now, its a form of silencing and it won't do for MSB. There were some bans and many good-byes (though some of those voices returend, many are long gone).

ETA: This is just to note the irony between the group that advocated for the changes to MSB then and where they are now. I still support moderation and a more civil place.

@seraphim73 said in Something Completely Different:

@lotherio Sorry, I actually did read your post a little too quickly and thought that you were saying that some of the folks who left did so because they bought into the propaganda/perception of reality. I see now that you were speaking directly about Germans in the '30s and '40s. I apologize for the misreading. I still don't think it's a great idea to use Nazis as an example for a group (or several groups) of people who have a different opinion from you.

No need to apologize I respect you. A lot of those leaving I am sad to see go, those who walked and some of the banned even. I was saying some of the activity here isn't looking good. I agreed in the initial post making that leap to Nazis had plenty wrong with it (Hasty Generalization Fallacy). On the other hand there is no love lost for some that have left and have behaved assholishly. I'm not on their side and I'm not apologizing for the stuff in the Politics threads and any characters behavior. I still believe in Gany, I believe in Meitze who trusted Gany. All things aside, there is always hope for this community.

@seraphim73 said in Something Completely Different:

@lotherio said in Something Completely Different:

I mean not all Germans

You brought it up yourself, but I'm gonna say... maybe not the best logical leap to make. You might want to rethink it. You might also want to rethink the idea that many of the people who left did so because of either an evil, charismatic leader or propaganda.

If we're going to say a number of people expressing an opinion are right because a lot of people are saying it, then I'm going to point a group consensus that I do not think was right.

Just to point out, this is exactly what @Devrex was just saying. I never said everyone who left was following anyone or buying propaganda or evil. You said that about me. I even pointed out that those leaving are not all the same group, but it gives the perception.

@seraphim73 said in Something Completely Different:

(do I think some of the people who were banned/left were assholes about it? Yup. Do I think that most of them were? Nope.)

Agreed and please note in my original post and the one quoted, I said its giving a perception of bullying/dogpiling and it wasn't looking good to me despite the many varied intents.

As far as most vocal being right/wrong, that's not for me to say but it wasn't a good shade for some folks in my opinion. Vocal majority and politics isn't for this area, but not all vocal majority are right or wrong for agreeing together. I mean not all Germans that were swept up with the Nazi agenda were in it for all the negative things associated with said party (there is plenty of fallacy in me going here understandably, but if were making leaps either way, we have to point out the potential negatives too); though I don't think it looked good for some of them even if they were bought by the propaganda vs the reality.

ETA: THe vocal majority said they don't like/trust staff anymore and it kept spiraling. I voiced my opinion that I trust Gany through this process and asked every to give it a fair shake to see how it plays out. Folks can walk if they want, I'm still here.

I can't polarize on this so much. Some of those leaving and/or banned I consider good folk and would be glad to be on games with them. @Grayson is good folk in my book.

@kalakh said in Something Completely Different:

You broke the community trust. There's an unspoken understanding in any community of people, anywhere, in any medium, but particularly online, that those who hold the authority will use their authority fairly, that they will listen to complaints and concerns, and that they will take appropriate action. This does not mean bowing to every whim or allowing every fire to burn uncontrolled - and you are well aware of that - but it does mean that when a bunch of people have a problem with something you've done or not done, your response needs to measured, your response needs to come from a certain understanding of why the problem has sprung up, and it needs to adequately address the issue.

The trust was broken in a seeming majority of the vocal, not the majority at large. The bowing to every whim is the most accurate thing in here and frankly a lot of that bowing has gone to the vocal majority in the past 3-4 years, including allowance of skirting the letter of the ‘law’. Again, call me ignorant, but this continued pressure by a select group that has been a vocal majority has the perception of bullying; and I understand they don't want to hear that term when its applied to them as they like to believe they have the moral high ground. It reads as if, we got some changes here to make MSB better, we should have some control over what's allowed/disallowed from our viewpoint. From outside that viewpoint it looks a lot different. I'm not friends with Mods here, but I can see that being the perception while trying to point out this as a third party. I can be a scape goat/flying monkey/sympathizer if that makes folks feel better in some need to polarize sides here.

Cold rules-pounding does none of this. I think you fell back on it because you were unprepared for protest, you did not know how to respond to the size of said protest, the vehemence of it, the direct attacks and the anger, because iron-clad rules are comfortable for you, because you feel you can draw a line in the sand and everyone worthy will find where you draw the line to be acceptable, or at least satisfactory in the moment, and everyone unworthy can be kicked out without guilt, because breaking rules and crossing lines are in and of themselves proof that someone who receives a ban deserves the ban.

The having rules and sticking by it, including what to do about direct attacks and anger, was ironically advocated by the a large portion of the folks recently banned or having just walked. The irony is there. When this change came into being, a few years after the switch to this incarnation of MSB/WORA/Predecessors (or the one that wasn't hosted on digital ocean I suppose), some folks spoke up in anger, many older folks walked then not liking the change. A whole host of old faces walked then. They said MSB was dead as they walked out the door disgruntled. but it survived.. Then, which lead them to walk, there as a big advocacy for less silent observation by mods to more hands on administration. Just when it didn’t work, more recently, for the advocacy group, its now a bad thing - having some rules were good until it was applied to them. Again, I know I’m viewed as a flying monkey for admin, when I have zero contact with any of them.

A lot of people disagree.

A lot of people do not (I am not saying they agree either, but they are not upset over recent Mod activity) - they're just not largely vocal as the current posters have been in the last few years.

I'm still down about Fred Ward, but Rosmarie Trapp has passed at 93. The last real Trapp member made famous by the movie Sound of Music.

@greenflashlight said in Something Completely Different:

The only reason I bring it up is because I have this dumb hippie fantasy that if we could just all sit down and talk about shit without getting all weird and defensive, we could sort this whole thing out.

This shows in the things you write, if you stick around, you should see about illing the vacancy, not that I want to talk about that, that vacancy is a big hole to fill.

@mietze I'll join this dogpile and say don't feel fault for anything and no one should blame you. You've always been a voice of reason. We've never talked but I wish you well. This is sad news but hopefully good for you.

@greenflashlight I have a great deal of respect for you, I always have. You're more even keeled than you may realize and are good at saying many a thing very rationally. Moons ago you are the one that brought up the idea of player liaisons to help bridge between players and staff on games. I still think that was a brilliant idea (even with some of the counter arguments making sense). I think you do have a level head and I'd follow you as a community leader.

I have respect for others who have dogpiled me, even though I was reached out to in DM and suggested I was a flying monkey by one of them, I still respect them. They've said lots of sane things throughout the years.

I'm just at the point that someone said, hey lets stop this until we can rationally look at things. But its still going, not saying they don't have a right to feel hurt.

When all this went down I was on vacation (1st week of may - a week and a half ago), it was a flash fire. My perspective is that it all looks one sided, not because something bad happened, but because it was asked to let Mods review things when they can be rationalize a little. There are still snarky comments being said towards Mods. I support the right to protest, but understanding the great civil rights folks that support this today do so with the idea that civil disobedience is intentional and intended to provoke some sort of response or reaction. Mods have said how they're going to react.

I see I'm coming out of this disliked and that's okay. I just felt some voice was left unheard in the middle, but its painting me as taking a side. I'm used to it, I'm Libertarian, I'm not right nor left but each accuses me of being the other when I don't agree with them.

@greenflashlight That's reasonable. I'm not trying to defend anyone and sorry its coming off that way. I'm in the boat that Gany said they'd look at things when they're all together again and reconsider. I trust Gany is where I'm coming from.

Fine I'll be the new scapegoat, everyone can be upset with me now. You can try to paint me as ignorant or not understanding.

@saosmash said in Something Completely Different:

@lotherio "from the outside"?

I like how I'm being put into a clique by the group now, I'm just saying it doesn't look good.