Posts made by mietze

Oddly, I think if there is any drama at all around that idea, should it be implemented, it won't be over NPCs being played /wrong/ so much as if the PCs don't pay enough attention to the individual and it becomes just like any other generic NPC (which it will to most PCs that aren't previously associated). A lot of WoD people in particular tend to get tetchy about "oldbies" and "new people" disparity in popularity/attention (or the perception). That can be hard enough to deal with with PCs, I wonder how adding that potential to NPCs too might work out. Or maybe it'd be totally fine.

I think you'd have to probably screen the players whose former PCs you used; if you did that and declined the offers of people kind of known for being a bit on the dramatic side, it might be fun. What I think I am hearing concerns wise is a mild concern that it might be a vector for the attention/story to be pulled from the mortal/PCs to focus on the familiar/beloved Monster (which is only going to be super fun for people in the know, probably). It's a little tweak to focus but it /could/ be significant. Dunno. Maybe it would not be though. I think it's valid and understandable to be raised as a concern though.

INTERNET!!!!!!!!!!!11!1eleventyone!!!!

Gany, that's what the kennel is for.

Redmond, WA. Ironic, no?

Still no landline or Internet. I do amusingly have a message on the landline voicemail from the phone company congratulating themselves on fixing the issue and if they haven't to give them a call.

However finally we did get a call from the local management yesterday (day 11) which is the first fucking update ever, apologizing and telling that we are now a "priority" since things were "scheduled to be fixed last Friday" (but probably because they just got notice that we and our small neighborhood have filed a complaint with the utilities commission so they are now on a state timeline as well.

But. Is anything repaired and has there been any estimate? Nope. At least in a 3rd world country I could bribe someone.

For non-business scenes, I throw in with the people who say there should be a slot limit. I understand the desire to include all comers, but the problem is for me (and I suspect many other STs) the ability to stay attentive/field questions/respond with reaction stuff that isn't just cut and paste canned tops out between 4-6 people not including the ST. (For me it's 5 max). When I have run an all-sphere plot (like for law) even if something is happening concurrently I schedule several times and cap the participants in any one scene (or limit folks to picking one if real crowd control is an issue).

What have noticed with larger "plot" scenes is the following:

• Because of the volume, player time is not respected. I actually think it's important to both players and ST to have start/end times that are adhered to promptly or a check in given if the time needs to be extended. For important plot scenes I always have a backup date/time for rollover. I don't want people to have worked so hard to lay groundwork and been attentive and all that, only to be so exhausted and redeyed once it hits 2 AM their time on a workday even though the scene was supposed to have wrapped 2 hours previously). Some of that can be ST mismanagement (like the ST does not set a time limit for responses and gives people in init an hour to respond even with no AFK notification, ect) but if you have 8 people in a scene then realistically if it goes into init or rolling, even if the player proposed action/Player Pose/rolling or ST negotiation/Result or Response pose only takes 5 minutes total, that's still 40 minutes to cycle through everyone assuming there isn't any clarification or explanation or help involved. Everyone can be attentive and on top of it and with the volume it may just turn a 3-4 hour action packed scene into a 6 hour slog with a lot of waiting for everyone and a harried ST.

• Maybe this is just something unusual, but I've noticed with +Event signups that do not have slot limits/waitlist, especially on attention-starved places, people seem less likely to show up/be on time than if there's boundaries/clear indications that you're taking a slot that could go to someone else. Maybe people assume that an unrestricted (in slots) scene with 15 people in it means that they can roll in whenever and it won't be a big deal or it won't start on time anyway or they get freaked out and decide not to go at all...but whatever the case, the people not knowing if they're going to be stuck in a 6 hour scene that should be 3 because they're waiting 90 minutes for people to pose so why bother, or if everyone bails so you'll have an awesome time with 2 people...just an observation I've made in participating and running scenes is that players (and sometimes STs!) tend to get real sloppy with manners really quick or things seem directionless and that seems to encourage a great deal of flakiness.

*Manners degrade at a rate proportional to the size of the scene, if the players are expecting it to be an action scene (by action I don't mean combat necessarily, just--not social or info dump but something that the PCs get to actively, personally contribute to and most importantly affect with their RP). I do think our hobby's general population at least on WoD places is very much suffering from "oh my god, no one is doing anything, I need to latch on to whatever I can because NOTHING is going on and nobody is doing anything" entertainmeitis. And because most WoD do devolve or are set up for a model that heavily, heavily relies on players to "make their own fun" rather than staff constantly giving them things to do, there are a lot of bored people who don't know what to do, who are tired and frustrated because they want action RP and are starved for it. So they sign up for an event, and when it doesn't deliver to their expectations (which may be modest) people get irritable and maybe even pretty rude. I think most people with limited time who are starved for RP find it really hard to deal with the realities of a large scene--most people are not going to get to "shine", there is no way the ST can help out 10 people find a niche in a couple of hours unless there some advanced planning, if you are patient and polite your questions may be lost compared to the bluster and page bombing and scenery chewing of the more aggressive players, if you choose to engage in that behavior then you may have to deal with a harried ST; again, maybe I just have had a bad run of observations/experiences, but I think the satisifaction level for players (even if they are awesome players and the ST is awesome--I'm talking about everyone doing their best here) tends to go down in larger scenes because of the time and attention crunch.

If I was a staffer or I'd committed to running a 8+ slot plot scene, then I'd do what I've done in previous instances where I either wanted to ensure rapid pace action with intense subject matter--bring in a helper or two and prewrite a lot of flavor poses that I could C&P in addition to actual response. I'd also ask that anyone participating send me any special tidbits/abilities of their PC so that I could be sure to a) have that loaded on my cheatsheet and also so that I had some time to think about how to anticipate incorporating it. I would be absolutely draconian on start times (I usually give 15 minutes unless everyone else agrees for more--with a huge plot scene I'd narrow that to 5 with prior notice, otherwise doors "lock" on the dot) and response time. (If you aren't ready when the timer starts you get skipped until the next round, if it happens again, or maybe 3 times, without warning then you get booted from the scene--you can observe but no longer participate). Yes, I would disclose all that up front in the +event and in the pre-set so that people who know they can't do that have the option to bow out.

But really, I would do everything in my power to avoid 8+ PC "plot" scenes. I have never really seen those work well ever. Maybe some of the TR EOTW scenes, but plenty of those where it did not. I don't run a lot of very straight up here is a big monster kill it or get killed/defeated stuff. Maybe something like that could be well done in a large scene; but as a ST I like to have the PCs be able to have open ended solutions to problems, I like to play WITH them as ST so that they can surprise me (and my players and PCs often have surprised me in huge ways as an ST, it's what I live for!), and for me personally I don't feel I can offer the individual attention I enjoy most once a scene carries over too large.

When I ooc facilitated court scenes on RfK I had a working agenda live doc, I was giving people cues/prompts behind the scenes and kept a running live log of the court for latecomers/people who couldn't make it but needed business taken care of to keep up and let me know if they needed additional time/info shared.

I encouraged introductions and info dumps to be pre written and most people did, and since I was time keeper if someone was inattentive/Afk and not responding to prompts I skipped them and things went on until they could jump back in on my mark.

Maybe people blew smoke up my ass, but we did get a lot of compliments on the timeliness/respect for players' time and organization. People could bring up spur of the moment stuff, and it could get heard without 3 hours of intros/waiting around.

I think ooc organizer for business scenes is essential, and it's helpful if it's not the person ICly running it, so they can concentrate and pay attention to what people are writing and respond in turn instead of fielding time management tasks and losing things in the sea of pages, ect.

Edited to add: my PC was a ghoul and therefore not someone needed to be active in scene with no pressure to need to rp. So no danger of what can happen if you have an organizer helper who is then going to get dinged because "omg you didn't play with/respond to me when I posed to you" or "why do you have x position you just sit in court scenes and don't do anything."

I would play on a pvp place if Becca ran it, and if it had a system that encouraged not always lethal pvp like RfK did.

After playing on RfK with largely the same people who I'd seen in pvp situations elsewhere, including myself, I have realized how essential staff being able to connect with people and pretty draconian adherence to visible open ethics is. There are no mechanics that can replace that. IMO.

I have run into a couple of 20 year olds and a 25 year old that got into mushing in the last 5 years (all through tabletop groups) but that's it.

And for the record in no way have I thought or talked about Lithium as a villian. I don't think that, nor have I. We just disagree, and probably just BY degree.

I find what I really enjoy kind of depends on who I am with. I am really intrigued by disturbing could happen scenarios, but I tend to limit those to folks I know that enjoy/don't mind them, because I don't like to see people oocly upset. But that kind of thing is what really sparks my character development.

For general in public/freak-n-greet stuff I do like the implausible/WTF crept especially if it comes with some potential for humor (not necessarily slapstick, and not as a focus).

I think the real disagreement is whether people can RP something inaccurate to the ideal (or worst in the case of abuse) and do so without being ignorant ooc or contributing to bad things happening RL.

As I have stated or tried to many different ways, without comparing anyone to a known and admitted ooc predator, people play all sorts of things for a wide variety of reasons, people with similar RL experiences may choose very different comfort levels with it in RP, even knowledgable people choose to not portray things in RP with best accuracy. I don't believe that to mean that these people who don't RP out best practices of parenting, consent, behavior in response to stress or frustration, ect are by the fact of doing so adding to the atmosphere that causes such things to happen RL.

The issue of mushers getting together (which yes, can and does happen---a lot) and their expectations of RL vs what they have played out on a mush is IMO a different issue. Regardless of how you RP with someone online, even if your play has ONLY incorporated best practices IC I really hope that the players meeting exercise some common sense safety guidelines. I know some people who have gotten into unsafe situations even though they knew the best practice rules and exercises them in their online play with each other, and thought they didn't have to be cautious when meeting in RL. There are a ton of people who talk the talk but are still /bad/ people out there.

What I was perceiving (and I do not think I was the only one), was a shaming of people who choose to engage in certain types of RP because nobody properly educated would ever want to play out anything different. Maybe the miscommunication started because lithium meant to restrict that solely to D/s play, but because the topic has expanded to abuse in general, I thought that they felt that way in general? However this is a pretty common argument and friction point on mushes, the Who would ever want to play X unless they're stupid/stunted/ect? thing.

So it may be that we do see mostly eye to eye on things, just not on whether D/s play should be in a different category of expecting the community to portray it healthfully/accurately and if that makes people extra specially bad people if they don't.

I think @lordbelh is doing a lot better job of communicating about that than me though.

No, but you are saying that anything people RP should be construed as them condoning it or supporting it in RL. That is the sentiment I strongly object to. Because someone seeks out or is untroubled by other people exploring themes such as abuse, violence, ostracization, loss of humanity/family or what have you in fiction and "play" in no way means they condone or wish to lure others into experiencing it in RL.

D/s is no more special than any of that other stuff. And yes, people will get it "wrong". I have to bite my lip a lot of times at all the extremely abused child grows up into a sparkly adult with no adaptive behaviors except they like to be spanked by daddy/mommy before they're fucked and tickled with feather bgs I've had to read over the years. Or the portrayal of well adjusted beautiful streetwalkers. Or people with 2 sets of twins and triplets that still have the time and energy to go do their secret supernatural underworld duties too.

Those people are not condoning the idea that a childhood of molestation and neglect is something that everyone can overcome by tightening their bootstraps. They are not condoning child neglect. They are not condoning human trafficking as a benign form of sexual empowerment. Most people when confronted with that stuff RL would have appropriate reactions to it.

People whose idea of ghoul play involves slapping around and sexual dominance play or treating the ghoul as an unequal member of that society do not act that way RL by and large. Are there some, yes, but dollars to donuts they were like that before they ever mushed and probably on a mush they're likely to also meet people who have gotten out and can offer real btdt support vs looking down on them for RPing whatever it is they're playing.

I helped put my rapist/abuser behind bars. I don't particularly care for RPing out forceful holding against ones will explicitly because of that experience. But that is me, and my unique reaction, and if someone rps that stuff because it's a fantasy and they have no clue, if I believed in God I would get down on my knees and praise it because that person is just enjoying a fantasy and like a normal person does not know nor want to experience it RL. And if it is someone who has btdt or come close, if that is how they process or it doesn't bug them, then more power to them and I feel no need to trample them on my high horse and call them an abuse advocate, any more that they should think it would be okay to tell me that if I wasn't such a big coward then I wouldn't be reluctant to play it.

Rp and fiction can be escapist, it can be educational, it can be exploratory in a way that talking about RL cannot, it can be pushing the boundaries or just trying something on for shits and giggles without someone actually taking a bat/fist to you. Whether that is getting to play the vigilante who kills the bad guy the cops can't get, stealing from the man, literally blowing that slow driver out of the left lane, putting on a sex show at a club, being the cop/social worker who actually does get to be the hero and rescue people using their super powers/making a great roll and being one step ahead of the action the ST has planned--whatever.

Mushing can be a reflection of RL. It is not RL. And what people play is not what they condone or even believe is right/correct/good. Nor should it be, unless they wish to play that, IMO.

If I didn't see it, it didn't happen!!

I'm going on day 8 of no landline/regular internet, so editing will happen as I suck at phone typing. Sorry.

And again, I am defending RP subject. Not behavior. The fact that you draw no distinction is troubling to me, and I find you telling me I am defending abusive /behavior/ offensive, but we will have to agree to disagree about what a terrible person I must be.

Exactly. If you cannot respect IC/ooc boundaries then IMO you have absolutely /no/ business inflicting yourself on that kind of play on a mush.

I have learned that there is no one right way to process things on a mush. If someone enjoys playing a ghoul (which is probably the most canon example of an abusive relationship by default in every sense of the word), they may be processing RL abuse, they may be engaging in fantasy fulfillment if it's mostly sexual, they may like to see what you mentioned, Lithium, the unraveling/loss of what was once mortal and strong because the monster takes hold, they may have just superficially read stuff and thought oh cool I can be part of things without committing to a super template and I'd like to dip my toe in.

Or combinations of even more reasons and it may shift over time.

So what? It's their own private business, unless they choose to share it with you. It's easy enough to find a few nice people that share your views, the only thing that getting upset about others not doing it "right"does is burn you the fuck out and make you not very fun to play with even with those you're compatable with. Ask me how I know.

Yes, @Lithium. I am totally the female version of whatshisface. I think you need to take a minute to calm down.

Also, why are you assuming that the submissive is female? I've seen plenty of power play on mushes where it's the opposite. There are no gender assumptions for me in the power differential.

Also, and I realize this is difficult, but it's also important to realize it's gameplay.

I don't have concerns about players who pop out mush babies and then ignore them in a 6 hour unrelated plot scene or barely ever give them screen time afterwards--even though yes, there are some extremely ill people RL that do leave their toddlers/infants alone in an apartment for 12 hours at a time to go get their fix/try to deal with all the other stuff they are having to deal with in their lives. I've been a therapeutic foster parent. A lot of my emergency/short term placements were from those kinds of situations. I do not get palpitations based on mush behavior around it because thank god most people are normal and it's just where they are focusing their gameplay in the time they have to play rather than needing to uphold some kind of educational example of the appearance of the real impact of parenting on screen.

I don't get upset about other people playing out rape fantasies in private. I don't get upset about people RPing out abuse in private. If they are look at me assholes who shove it down unconsenting people's throats, that's different.

The depictions of things on a mush are rarely accurate, either the Dudley do-right perfect version or the total hot mess of epic it would never happen version.

So people not into something will project their own distaste onto the people that are? Including a "think of the dumb people/children you reprobates!"? Say it ain't so.

Well, that is the other thing. Even removing any sort of sexytimes, I don't think there is any way at all to view the vampire-ghoul relationship (thematic as written in the source RPG) as "healthy". I don't believe you could have said that about werewolf and kinfolk/wolf blooded until 2.0.

So my objection is not that people are doing dominant/submissive "incorrectly" (I've been around long enough that snobbiness in that regard makes me laugh--even in the RL community, uh sorry, there are, have been, and always will be differing definitions and practices) so much as unless there's a lot of communication what someone sees when they read/place an ad or seek out rp is most of the time going to be a little off from the other person's idea and some negotiation is probably ideal. Maybe I'm jaded but it seems like that's a high bar of investment to clear these days.