@surreality said:
That was the original plan. There was... really quite a lot of screaming.
Honestly, that's one of the pitfalls of the WoD community, I feel like. People devolve to screaming and mob rule because it -works-. On some level staff needs to be willing to say fuck off when it comes to decisions that could possibly be good for the game, and not get held back by people who piss their pants at the idea of trying something new.
@Jaunt Atonement actually sounds amazing. It's -veeeery- similar to String Theory, a dystopian future Heroes MUX (Based on the TV show Heroes). We had "seasons", though it was both player and staff driven, it was extremely successful.
It had a planned ending and got to the final season of things, though the nature of the theme meant that it wasn't an entirely loose-end tying climax. To celebrate the anniversary, one of the main plot runners wrote up a pretty interesting thing about the nature of the ending, which was fun.
That's really cool though, even though sad (I like happy endings because I'm a sappy bastard). I could definitely see playing something like Atonement.
@surreality I didn't mean fame the stat. Fame as a stat honestly doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying "I'm famous because I have a certain number in this stat". I prefer organic fame, where you're legitimately known and a big deal because you actually did shit in the game and the world ICly has a reason to care. This is obviously only possible in a game with an actually coherent world, though.
The -only- way that I think fame as a stat should be gained is by actually doing shit, and getting rewarded fame by staff as a result. If you're going to be a celebrity, then work for it. If you're going to be some famous hero or whatever, then do shit. But fame as a stat in a game with no coherency or consistency is completely and utterly pointless.
But personally, if I was running a WoD game, I would completely abolish fame as a system, period. It would simply not exist. It's stupid. I'd keep influence for organizations, but that's all. If you want to be famous, do shit. If people don't know who you are and don't care about you, you're not famous.
@Jaunt There is one thing I'm curious about, in my limited experience with RPIs.
Like, I'm not sure if the theme of an RPI generally experiences growth? I'm not saying they don't, this is an actual question. Like, if you could introduce some new technology to the theme, work your way up to starting a faction that addresses a problem that wasn't previously a focus for any factions (Assuming that a particular game has factions, of course). Or even the overall death of a faction once it's run its course and outlived its narrative usefulness.
Is it possible for RPIs to function in such a way, or are they generally more static and focused on preserving the theme, but allowing players to grow/rise in ranks/have political intrigue within the established climate of the game?
@Jaunt When people start saying "BUT THIS RACE WOULD NOT BE INVOLVED WITH THIS THING IN THIS PERIOD", I get some serious red flags about a game and the intelligence of the people running it. I guarantee that they don't know anywhere near as much about history as they think they do, and when you call them on it with proof, they freak the fuck out.
To be honest, in a MUSH you don't really -need- these coded things that an RPI has. Don't get me wrong, I love RPIs and all, but in a -good- MUSH what races you can and can't be should be pretty apparent. Exceptions to the rule largely spawn from either plot, canon, or someone bothering to look into the in-depth theme of the game, as a good MUSH isn't entirely inflexible. But just making shit up without any in-universe logic behind it is pretty much just breaking common sense. It happens, and it's not something that should even remotely trip up good staff members to say no to.
Yeah, in an RPI it's cool to be able to collect stuff and then say "I'm gonna build this", but I think that it's significantly more fulfilling to have to actually work toward what you want within a narrative (Granted, I haven't played a -lot- of RPIs, so maybe you have different experiences). If you just collect some sticks and build a skyscraper in a day, it breaks my suspension of disbelief super hard. And I say this as someone who plays a game with a man made completely out of tofu, because there is no limit to the blasphemies of Umbrella Corporation.
I think a good MUSH should generally run on some level of common sense based on that universe's logic. Good staffers won't have much trouble enforcing this, and good players will generally adapt to that or leave. I say this as someone who has played in lots of places that functioned this way plenty of times.
If something isn't clear from the documentation, all a player has to do is ask, "Here is my logic, can I do this thing?", and all a staffer has to do is say yes or no, and if no, explain why so that the player understands the game a bit more. A MUSH, to me, should be somewhat fluid, which is much easier to do when your theme is very detailed and defined. Once you set your boundaries and limitations, then you know how flexible you can be, and how your theme can grow beyond those limitations in future plots and such.
I think that on some level, this is the problem with WoD games. They shove in like 50 books, while boundaries and limitations are seen as weaknesses because having as many players as possible matters more than having a coherent theme. Actually being able to manage the theme, make all of the big stuff happening feel as if it should matter to the entire MUSH, it seems nearly impossible in a theme like that. If people are blowing shit up, assassinating vampire kings and shit, and half the game has no idea that any of this is going on? There's something wrong.
Comic MU*s are similar. These days it's all about sticking Marvel and DC together. Rather than having a single established universe, an entirely new and not anywhere near as defined universe is created. Players come in unfamiliar and disconnected, and you have a bunch of groups with similar narratives that somehow have to play together in the same universe now. This isn't to say that Marvel or DC don't have groups with similar narratives within their own universes, it's at least more defined how they play together in the same universe.
Focusing on fitting as much stuff into a single game as possible, to get as many players as possible, is a mistake. Trying to define your focus and your world, and actually give people something to care about, should always be the priority.
This is why I don't play many games for a long period of time anymore, and focus on just a few. I don't care about having a fancy sandbox, I want to play in a world. The trend lately seems to be fancy sandboxes where everyone can do anything but almost nothing matters.
Got into an argument with my best friend about blackface. It has pretty much ruined my day.
I don't mind WoD, but a lot of the times I've played WoD games, I've felt as if the theme was significantly less cohesive than the games I typically spend most of my time on. This isn't really a product of WoD in of itself, but there's just a jarring amount of inconsistency and zero quality control that makes it difficult for me to care beyond casual RP. (Disclaimer: I haven't played Eldritch or Fallcoast yet.)
There's a thin line between unnecessary theme policing and quality control. Mega Man MUSH for example, which probably has the most defined MUSH theme at the moment (By virtue of having existed for like ten years and still being insanely active), keeps a level of continuity. If something gets destroyed, it's destroyed, if something gets built, it gets built. But it needs to make sense (The game has moved away from the old days of blowing up a city every other week).
Generally it's a good idea to ask staff before wanting to build a skyscraper (Which is not something you're going to be able to just magically do over night, or with questionable resources), trying to introduce some sort of new science, and other things like that. Of course just dicking around with minor inventions is allowed, because it ultimately doesn't affect much and isn't all that theme breaking if you have a grasp of the already existing technology.
But either way, my point is, I have trouble investing in a game that doesn't even invest in itself. Is there a hard, easily quantifiable line between theme policing and quality control? I'm not really sure. But I do know it when I see it. I don't mind having patience and not being able to do certain things right away, since being able to do certain things -immediately- (build a skyscraper), make no goddamned sense. Especially when you're building a skyscraper in a small town.
I will say that this might largely be my own personal preference, I don't know if anyone agrees with me on this. But when I join a game, I want to care about the theme. I want to feel like what I'm doing matters, that certain things have to be worked for. Not like I can just spend the XP and then bam, I have what I want. It's so completely and utterly dull for me. It's like role-play junk food. Instant gratification.
I know that a lot of people have a poor opinion of the game due to its past, but quality control, consistency, and having to actually work for things and having a sense of fulfillment when my characters work for their goals, is why I spend so much time in Mega Man MUSH. I could get into pretty much -any- theme if it worked like that.
That's just my two cents, on what I prefer when it comes to running and making a theme feel alive. Some people might think "But I don't want people deciding what I can and can't do", which I guess is a valid preference (This is why my BFF has never played in a MU).
But I honestly think that anyone would feel more fulfilled if they didn't just have instant gratification, had to really sit down and learn the theme, and felt like, "Alright, this will be my goal, I can't wait to see what happens when I try to pursue this", rather than being entirely in control of the outcome and all of the variables surrounding it.
Who wouldn't want to feel like they can impact the world and have their character actually gain legitimate fame or infamy beyond a small group that happens to be involved with a PRP?
MU*s are like "Fuck sliced bread, I want to cut my bread. God, what is with people and their goddamned modern plumbing and heating? Plebs. Sorry, I only listen to the radio, television shows are for lazy assholes and they're ruining entertainment. And god, those damned talking picture movies? No thanks."
We need things like Evennia to kick this hobby in the ass and actually try to evolve with the rest of the internet. I'm looking forward to it. Though I still want to make something even simpler that doesn't even require coding to make a MU (Future code goals), making something that uses Python is -really- good, because there some extremely simplified resources to learn it that doesn't involve combing through piles of documentation.
@Groth Tabletop style RP is generally how people in -our- community use things like that. But at large almost every single social media or messenger platform is used to RP in much the same way that we RP in MUs. That's why it would be fairly easy to bring in new players, but there has to be things that they actually -want- to play.
Why do you think there are so many people in WoD MUs? It's because it's generally well-supported. All they have to do is join, no one has to worry about making one. And I've met a ton of people whose first and only MU was The Reach.
Logically speaking, if people who have different RP interests could all easily create a MU, the community would very quickly expand. But ultimately we only appeal to the niches that people who know how to create a MU* choose to execute. We appeal to -so- few niches that there's absolutely no way we could possibly draw a lot of people into the community while it's so difficult to create MUs.
I forgot what it's called, but there -is- a commercial RPI out there. I wish I could remember the name, but it's pay for perks. It's one of those hardcore RPIs that doesn't even have an OOC channel, barely any means of OOC communication at all to be honest.
But as far as meaningful RP, that's the thing, in MUing we have a misconception that we're the height of RP. But I think the vast majority of RPers are like me. They'll RP in a goddamned pit of dirt and it won't be much different from being in a MU for them. If MUing didn't exist I'd still manage to find a way to roleplay long plots with lots of people and such. It's not really a MU exclusive thing.
Really, the challenge with drawing players into MUing is actually showing what the benefit of doing it would be to begin with. I guarantee that you could go to some random forum RP or IRC RP and explain MUing, and they'll say, "Well I can do that anyway, why should I care about this?"
Actually introducing MUing as an alternative that people have an incentive to actually give a shit about when they already have a means of RPing is a challenge. Being able to explain what MUing is would be the first hump. It's very difficult to explain what it is to people who haven't done it before, and it's extra difficult to get people to invest in writing a long ass app and learning the different commands and stuff. I would focus on learning how to do an elevator pitch for particular MUs for people who have never even heard of the hobby.
A lot of people have the misconception that people left the hobby to go play MMOs. But the truth is that there's a massive well of people doing text based roleplay, it's extremely common and always has been. They're absolutely everywhere. The only reason MUs aren't full of these people are two reasons:
They have no idea that these things even exist because, again, we only advertise within our own community. We barely take advantage of social media or anything, like so many non-MU roleplays do, we're pretty much invisible as a community. We're not dead, we're invisible.
Creating MUs is extremely difficult. Anyone can start up a chatroom, create a forum, start some RP Tumblr, Twitter, or Facebook group. But the entry to creating a MU is absolutely massive and requires either knowing a coder, having the patience to learn how to create one, paying for space, and a bunch of other stuff.
As long as MUs are difficult for most people to create, and as long as we have the attitude that they shouldn't become any easier and that everyone should be willing to sit down and learn all of these things, then we're going to remain behind the times. If there was some super easy plug and play way to get MUs up and running, I guarantee it would absolutely dwarf the current community in size.
The concept of our community isn't behind the times, dead, or outdated or whatever. It's simply entirely inaccessible. If we were a pie chart we'd probably be like the 2% of internet text role-players who inexplicably put up with limited options rather than go out there and just put together whatever RP idea comes to mind, then just invite people to it. You can't do that here without a huge buy-in.
There's no point in fixing our visibility issues until we fix the cost of entry for future creators. And when we do that, there will be more options for future players, who are likely only not MUing because there's really not much variety at all. Somewhere out there is a creator with a dream of creating an Aliens vs. Terminator MU, even though they've never heard of MUing, and it's not going to happen because they feel intimidated by all of the honestly unnecessary coding effort that goes into creating one.
How do we address these issues? I have no idea. But I would say that rather than dead, these are what our community's actual issues are. There are simply easier ways to have text-based role-play than MUing. Make MUing easier and you solve the basic problem.
Now I'm going to go watch Alvin and the Chipmunks.
Personally, I don't think it would be wise to go the monetary advertising route with MUSHes or RPIs that use commercial properties. The average MUSH already skirts a thin line when it comes to the legality of its existence, as the average one would be like advertising an interactive fan fiction.
I believe that the most wise form of promotion would be to learn how non-MUs promote their RPs, and promote a MU through those means. It's almost always going to be a casual way rather than ads or anything like that. Generally, if it works for a business, it's probably best to avoid it in a MU, unless you're running a commercial MUD with an original theme that's actually there to make money (And any such MUDs do run ads).
I figured you were at the very least from 2K5 or 2K5-adjecent. I never played it, but a lot of the population from it are in other games that I play.
@Jaunt There's nothing wrong with employing professional techniques when you're dealing with official business, like, say, solving a dispute or making an official ruling that could affect an entire game's future or something. As far as customer service techniques specifically, it very much depends on how you do it.
But I think the most important aspect of being staff in a game is simply not being afraid of making necessary decisions, and being able to quickly determine when those decisions are necessary. You can keep customer service techniques in mind when dealing with players, especially when it comes to customer service ethics (I've read a lot of textbooks while helping people with college homework >_>), but you also want to remain accessible.
If you come off as -too- authoritative, it can make you difficult to approach. I know a lot of players who have dealt with -very- strict staff members, and as a result became downright afraid of directly interacting with staff unless they feel it's absolutely necessary. Some staff aren't even bad, necessarily, they just make themselves seem unapproachable because they're staff first, people second.
@Thenomain, even though you haven't had the best interactions with him, is a good example of this. If you don't know really know him, he just seems like the super serious coder who you're afraid to directly approach because you're not really sure if he's cool with that or not. Unless one posts or reads these forums, it's difficult to get a read on how approachable he is. He doesn't really talk much on his coder bit, and he seems to often keep his characters a secret.
Granted, this doesn't make @Thenomain a bad staffer, he's a hard worker. And as a coder he's not really under any obligation to interact with players. But if he was, say, the headwiz, or had to directly deal with player relations, being approachable would be very important if you want players to come to you with problems or suggestions to begin with. I've been in games where staff react negatively to suggestions or even -constructive- criticism about a game (Not just MUSHes, but some less-than-great MUDs too).
Presenting yourself as approachable, but keeping the customer service tools in the back of your mind for when they're actually necessary, is really a good balance.
As for other things you mentioned, there are things that we as a community could do re: promotion, that I don't really see done, like, almost ever. We promote within our own community, but I don't see people attempt to promote in other thriving communities of RP. I'd say that at this point, MUing is a small fraction of the role-players on the internet. There is a definite benefit to promoting outside of our community.
Hell, I started MUing because a friend invited me to a DBZ MUD. Before that I was roleplaying in Byond Tabletop, chatrooms, and some forums. So, yes, I believe it's possible to grow the hobby. I see new players drip into it all the time, despite cries of the hobby being dead/dying.
Also, being newbie friendly generally involves being approachable, and having created your game to be a newbie friendly environment. This is a combination of both community -and- game design, and is a pretty complicated topic. But in the end, being newbie friendly and promoting to the outside means explaining things in very plain language and pitching it somewhat casually.
@Echx said:
Embrace the fact that the first draft will be utter crap but you can't fix what's on the page.
Also, Butt In Chair Time. Carve out a section of time, every day, park yourself in front of your keyboard with nothing to do but stare at your word processor of choice. Bonus points if you can turn off everything else: turn off your internet, get one of those blocker programs that lets you lock yourself out of Facebook/Twitter/email/whatever else, and then for your allotted period of time (20 minutes, 2 hours, whatever) you can either write, or you can sit there and stare at the blank page.
Eventually you'll write. Maybe not the first day, maybe not the second, but eventually. And it gets easier. Maybe the 5th day you'll write 50 words, but by the 10th day you might be up to 500. It's like exercising, and that particular writer's muscle starts out super weaksauce.
Somebody way smarter than me explained it like this: you can't wait for the muse to show up, but when she does, you damn well better be sitting there waiting for her, because she's not going to look for you, she's going to move on to the next guy.
This is actually excellent advice!
@Thenomain said:
Do not fear the Shitty First Draft.
This is actually a part of the root of my procrastination, to be honest.
@Jaunt I noticed how you mentioned MUSHes and customer service. I can't speak for everyone else, because my RPing background is insanely broad and looks like complete nonsense. But in MUSHes I don't think it's generally seen as super professional staff leading the players like customers and such.
Don't get me wrong, there is -some- level of professionalism expected. There are certain lines that staff are expected not to cross, or else they lose the trust of the players. But I think that when it comes to MUSHing (Which I'm kind of using as a general term because when I say MU* this forum's dumb code hates me), people are probably more inclined to trust people who see themselves as just players with extra responsibility.
In MUSHing, it's less customer service, and more, "Can I trust this person to solve a problem/not be a dick/not post shit on MUSB". Ultimately, we're a community, and if not friends then at least mutual friend-like people who just want to enjoy a hobby.
If you think of it like politics, you come out better by being Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton rather than Lyndon B. Johnson or Bush Sr.
I know fuck-all about Lyndon B. Johnson outside the context of Kennedy, but I know he seems stiff as fuck and I don't wanna hang out with him.
Overall, my point is to just be loose, chill, relax. People want to see you as a person before an administrator.
Take a hint from the greatest Japanese idol producer of all time, Tsunku.
So, the Optional Realities or whatever thread got me to thinking, there are very common newbie mistakes that people make. I made all sorts of mistakes. I'll go through some of those mistakes and allow it to serve as a guide to general productivity.
I had no idea of the particular tone or overall expectations of posting in this community. I assumed that everyone would be nice to me because I was new, and that things I said wouldn't be poked at so hard, or interpreted too negatively.
This was obviously a mistake. If I expected these things early on, I'd have quickly learned when and when not to engage, and how to engage in a way that wouldn't blow up in my face immediately. But this is only one half of that particular problem, because...
When I got the initial negative reaction, I reacted with panic and didn't know what to do. So like any good mammal, I got defensive and decided to act as such. Becoming a wounded animal meant that everyone smelled blood in the water, so it was down hill from there.
Of course, there are solutions to these things. Often those solutions are terrible, so of course I chose one of the most terrible solutions possible...
As a wounded mammal, I obviously interpreted the community in the most horrific light possible. Of course, this -is- a cesspool of scum and villainy, it's not as bad as it seems when you're a wounded animal.
When faced with the fight or flight response, I often choose fight at the worst possible opportunity and in the worse possible way (IE: "Keeping It Real", a psychological flu-like infection that can strike at any moment).
When I became my interpretation of the community, I started trying to be arrogant about all of my RPing experience, and treat others as inexperienced "noobs". Being a douchebag obviously backfired further and more horrifically, rather than making people like me.
Go figure.
So I declared the community to be a wasteland of sorrow and chaos, and decided that the only way to get my ultimate revenge was to strike back...
In a last ditch effort to poison the well that rejected my attempts to drink from it, I decided to unleash the full force of my stream of consciousness upon the land. As I had no idea how to actually troll, but I knew that not filtering my thoughts would be irritating to most anyone, I decided that it would be the best possible revenge.
Japanese idols, wrestling, reports of watching The Tribe, ignoring the topics to instead respond to my interpretation of reality. It was the ultimate last ditch effort to become the ultimate evil and drive a stake through the hearts of the living.
Of course I regret when I made it personal by going at @Thenomain that one time, this was the moment I realized that I was becoming consumed by myself. Drowning in a pool of being free to express one's self in ways that no mortal man was ever meant to experience.
And then I got really bored and got myself banned by doing the only thing I was told not to do.
Almost two years removed, I ultimately reached my current method of approaching the community. A method I hadn't tried before but is ultimately the most ideal approach that I've found. An approach that would work well for people who find themselves frustrated by the alien atmosphere of this community.
Most of you write, how do you cure procrastination?
In @Jaunt's defense, the sort of sales talk way of communicating is a pretty normal thing in some MUD circles when it comes to being staff and such. I've always found the MUD side of our hobby to somewhat have the expectation of being like, super ultra professional rather than super casual like in MUSHes and such.
Except stuff like DBZ MUDs, then it's like "Oh, you have tits? Let me page you dicks".
