Posts made by SparklesTheClown

@Griatch said:

@ThatGuyThere said:

Alright quick example from my experience. I made a char who as a job worked in a comic store, there was no comic store on grid. No biggie I did not think I would rp being at work much. RP happens my char mentions said job people want to pop in a visit him at work scenes take place there so I decide to build it.
I co to the build nexus and dig the rooms make the exits get is all connected together, get the success and fail messages set and then put in a request to have it linked to the grid. A couple days later after build staff looks though it to make sure I did not mess anything up it gets put on grid and rp in it continues.
Or another example on a different game, in cgen spend point on having a free hold, this gets approved so before hitting grid. There the process was a bit longer. I put in a request to build it gets approved I do the building of the project in this case three rooms, grounds, house, freehold, I add the the request I am done then it gets looked over and linked to grid.
So basically the ability to @dig and create exits etc. not so much abotu altering a room there but taking an idea for a place and turning it into a room.
Also on MUSHes the billboards, mail system, and channels for the most part are soft-coded as well.

As others have already mentioned, these are not really things you need the full power of a softcode language for. As far as Evennia is concerned, it can easily be expanded with very sophisticated build commands. So you could certainly have all those things available. Things like billboards, mails and channels are things that can just as well be coded externally.
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Griatch

This is basically how MUDs typically work, so yeah.

@Groth said:

I think the main reason there's not more prompts at least in PennMUSH is because PennMUSH does as far as I'm aware not have any real support for prompts. Having back-end support for prompts would help a lot in that regard.

Yeah but I never said anything about doing this in PennMUSH, or MUX, or anything along those lines.

@Derp said:

See, what you're talking about here is something more properly covered under something like @program, wherein you type a thing and a series of prompts comes up asking you for input. That's more than just a single command, though, it's a series of things executed in order that then compiles a final result.

As far as a single command goes for digging, @dig is about as simple as it gets for what it does.

I just explained how it can be exactly way more simpler than that, by doing it exactly the way I described.

@Groth I guess I should say complicated syntax, then. But either way, an extremely simplified dig command would be:

dig

And then prompts pop up asking what you wanna do and what to type in to do it. Preferably something like north/south/west/etc. Then prompts like what you want the name to be, etc. Dig would initiate a series of prompts, so the only thing you'd need to remember is to type dig to begin with, and everything else is just handed to you.

To be perfectly honest, I'm having some trouble relating to the argument. As noted by my less-than-comprehensive MUing history listing in my playlist thread, I've played a huge amount of games. A good chunk of MUSHes or whatever that I've played, do not allow players to tinker with soft-code. There have been plenty where you need to ask staff permission before you do anything like that. Hell, there have been a -lot- where the only kind of grid building you can do is to submit a desc to staff and ask them to put it somewhere.

So I really do not see the lack of players being able to access soft code to be a game killer. In most games I play where players have no permissions to use it, no one gives a shit. This is literally the first time I've ever even seen someone care about not being able to, which suggests that it would be an issue that's in the extreme minority to actually worry about.

@Groth said:

I personally find attempts to use English grammar-like syntax in CLI commands only make them even more hard to remember and type in properly.

The fact that you have to remember any syntax at all pretty much illustrates my entire point.

@Groth said:

@HelloProject said:

There's absolutely no reason that one shouldn't be able to quickly build their grid and theme without having to sit down and learn a bunch of code first, soft or otherwise. And no, hosting a server yourself isn't going to be perfect, but this is -exactly- how Byond works and I already have an idea of the pitfalls of players hosting a game on their own computer.

I don't think it's possible to make digging any easier then it already is in most MU* while still using a CLI interface. There are all sorts of benefits that could be realized by creating a system with a graphical interface instead but that's a huge undertaking.

There are a million ways I could think of making digging easier that don't involve a GUI. But being used to doing things a certain way can make it seem so easy that one can't possibly imagine how it could become easier. I mean, look at the average MUSH chargen vs. the average MUD chargen.

The average MUD chargen prompts you for questions, then prompts you for a desc and background and you're done. Someone just needs to look at you.

The average MUSH that doesn't work based on email apps, often involve using a bunch of different commands and having to look at documentation, because often it's not entirely clear how to use the commands.

I'm not saying that one is better than the other, but MUD chargens are usually way simpler than MUSH chargens. They practically hold your damned hand through the entire process.

Obviously I'm not debating chargens, I'm simply comparing the two things to show how different they are in levels of simplicity. Things can -always- be simpler.

@Griatch said:

@HelloProject said:

The idea that people need to pay their dues or whatever and learn to code just so they can create a MU is a ridiculous barrier to entry, and a part of why our community isn't as large as other RPing communities. Creating a simple package and throwing it out there to be used doesn't hurt anyone, so I'll make it my own pet project.

Do consider dropping into the #evennia development IRC channel on Freenode. Would like to hear more what you had in mind. Maybe we can help each other out!
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Griatch

I'm still learning, to be honest. I was going to use this as both a learning experience -and- a productive contribution. That's the only reason I haven't really been involved in Evennia. But I will drop in, maybe I can learn something.

@Jaunt Future MUD looks -very- interesting. I'll do some reading into that too.

@Groth said:

@HelloProject said:

edit: Byond Tabletop allowed you to customize a sheet for people to use, with a shitty version of HTML. You could create different rooms and stuff. And rather than paying for server space, you simply hosted the server on your own computer.

There has never (not even in the dawn of internet) existed a technical restriction that required you to pay for server hosting rather then hosting it yourself. The reason to purchase hosting rather then host yourself have always been the same.

1. It's usually cheaper to purchase a hosting service then pay the electricity bill of keeping a computer on 24/7.
2. It's hard to maintain a good service availability at home between power outages, network disruptions etc.

Minecraft is a really good illustration here. It's utterly trivial to host your own minecraft instance however the virtual hosting providers are ungodly popular because they're really cheap and really easy to use with one-click installs for all common configurations.

The reason you're not going to see 'Babys first MU*' is because unlike Minecraft, you can't really start a MU* by just starting the server configuration of your choice and press 'Go'. After you've put your server online there is a metric fuckton of work awaiting you in making that server into an actual game anyone would want to participate in in digging a grid, writing a rule-set, writing a theme etc etc.

The average RPer is not going to have any idea how to get a modern MU up and self-hosted (Hell, the average RPer is not going to know how to get a MU hosted at all). And stuff like digging and all of that are still not particularly streamlined or intuitive unless you're already used to it. There needs to be something even simpler than softcode, and I have to entirely reject the idea that it isn't possible.

There's absolutely no reason that one shouldn't be able to quickly build their grid and theme without having to sit down and learn a bunch of code first, soft or otherwise. And no, hosting a server yourself isn't going to be perfect, but this is -exactly- how Byond works and I already have an idea of the pitfalls of players hosting a game on their own computer.

It's not a big deal and games go down. When someone decides to really commit, they might find cheap hosting, they might not. But actually hosting is an option and it's super easy. Of course Byond itself has its own programming language, so it wasn't particularly easy for non-coders to make a game, and they stole code a lot >__<.

But either way, if creating a simple package to create a MU without knowing any sort of code is not seen as viable by MUers themselves, I guess I'll have to make it a future project myself. It would make sense for me to do it anyway, since I already have a clear idea of the scope of what RPers outside of MUs would want anyway.

The idea that people need to pay their dues or whatever and learn to code just so they can create a MU is a ridiculous barrier to entry, and a part of why our community isn't as large as other RPing communities. Creating a simple package and throwing it out there to be used doesn't hurt anyone, so I'll make it my own pet project.

For the average RPer, almost all of this is going to be entirely irrelevant when it comes to simply wanting a simple way to get a game up. But if someone did want to do D&D or something, a simple dice roller would suffice, as it typically does outside of MUing. Or macros, which is as complex as I've seen things get outside of a MU environment. It's quick and dirty, and it seems to work very well for people. As long as there's a functional sheet, you're good to go.

We're used to all sorts of overly complex code and a million different commands to do a million different things, but I'd be willing to imagine that this is more off-putting than anything. None of this even exists in the average internet roleplay. Having a "Baby's first MU" package would do a lot to get people into the hobby, though there's not a lot that one can do about paying for server space. Short of that being addressed, free non-MU options are always going to seem like the favorable alternative to create an RP.

Once one gets used to the hobby itself, and perhaps gets a taste for wanting to do something more complex, if they do at all, then they can move onto learning an established thing like Penn. But again, as long as it costs money to make a MU*, I think that's going to remain off-putting.

Too bad there's not a MUing equivalent of Byond Tabletop.

edit: Byond Tabletop allowed you to customize a sheet for people to use, with a shitty version of HTML. You could create different rooms and stuff. And rather than paying for server space, you simply hosted the server on your own computer.

Is it constructive if I say, "Won't somebody listen to Reason?!"

But really, @Reason makes a good point about Python. I don't -know- it, but after I've gotten better at C++ (I'm learning it for a specific reason), I plan to learn Python.

They actually have a web based terminal for learning Python on Code Academy, without the need for even getting a compiler or anything.

This website is the reason I know any code at all, because combing through piles of documentation as a non-coder made it really difficult for me (though documentation is now easier for me to understand -because- of this site): https://www.codecademy.com/

@Volund said:

Glad to be here, but dunno how much of an impact I'll have. Mass social media often intimidates me.

You're one of the most likable coders around, you'll be fine.

@Misadventure said:

Did this have anything to do with Sinterklaus?

No, haha. It was about cosplay.

I'm really interested in Evennia, but I'm no where near at a level of coding where I can even remotely contribute anything helpful to the discussion.

I only know about Evennia because I'm friends with Volund. I actually thought Volund created it, but I guess I misunderstood.

This reminds me of how YouTube and Facebook are horrifyingly bloated sites now, rather than focusing on being simple and functional. They're complicated and more difficult to understand than ever.

@Jaunt's perspective there seems to be a really good balance of both things. So, yeah, I can definitely get behind that line of thinking. There are definitely things to learn from more experienced players, and what can be learned from the status quo to innovate in a productive direction in the first place.

I blame Taco Bell for inspiring my anti-old guard rebellion with their millennial targeted advertising of forced memes.

@Thenomain said:

"Good" is an awful metric. Do Pringles taste bad? Are they unhealthy? Do they cost too much? They sure as hell good at the most important metric to Kellogg: They make a shit ton of money. Also: There is positive social goodwill toward the brand; the name Pringles itself has value beyond monetary.

I don't think this kind of deconstruction is useful, though. I can both agree and disagree with you, which I have and will continue to do. Because you kids these days.

I guess ultimately this is an extremely subjective topic. But I do genuinely want nothing more than for new and interesting things to happen. It's true, "good" isn't really a, well, good metric, since as I said, I occasionally play on these games I say are stagnant too. Junk food isn't necessarily "good", but it can be satisfying.

But also...

YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE YOUNG PEOPLE!

edit: I apologize, I just realized that this gif is from Jimmy Fallon. I do not endorse Jimmy Fallon (except when he gave us a Kenan & Kel reunion).

@Thenomain I'm not saying you're wrong in that these things don't work to attract a ton of players. But a lot of people also eat Pringles, and Pringles are complete garbage that literally cannot say that it's potato chips without having a lawsuit on its hands.

The fact that these games attract a ton of players doesn't make them good, it makes them games capable of attracting a ton of players. They're non-threatening MU* junk food with a wide open bag of candy for people to reach into.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against By Night games that limit their scope to just a few compatible spheres, because then you have a real game that can at least have a chance of functioning as something other than a fancy sandbox. But I can't in good faith say that the current status quo is anything resembling actual quality.

Maybe that's pretentious, maybe it's personal preference, but I'd rather people dump all their bad ideas out there until a good one falls out, because it's still better than the cookie cutter climate of mediocrity that keeps being perpetuated due to the misconception that a large player-base is the same as having a good game.

By that logic, Friedberg & Seltzer movies are good because a lot of people saw them. Inception is good because it made millions of people feel smart by spoon feeding them hamfisted symbolism. American Idol is somehow meaningful even though no one can remember more than maybe three or four winners, but millions of people watch it. And many more similar examples.

It's one thing when the old way works and facilitates growth and creativity, it's another thing when the old way is a stagnant testament to mediocrity and appeals to a need for instant gratification and having the highest numbers possible.

The old way isn't going anywhere, because it works for what it is. A five star restaurant isn't going to put Burger King out of business, because there's a demand for cheap food that doesn't really challenge you at all. But people have visions of fancy restaurants. People don't always know what they want, because the option hasn't been presented to them yet.

It's up to people to try those ideas, and if they fail, they fail. Sure, a restaurant is a huge investment, but a MU really isn't to anywhere near that degree. A creator doesn't need to go through an entire focus group to try their idea. They should simply try it, and those big non-threatening, easily digestible chains aren't going anywhere, nor will they be hurt by the attempt. Hell, I'll probably end up playing one again if I get bored enough.

Also, my comment about encouraging stagnation wasn't saying that this is a heavily prevalent mindset, I was directly responding to your comment specifically.

@AmishRakeFight said:

Assuming that their perspective was a defense of the practice, I really can't math out anymore why anyone fails to see how racist that is?

Even if you exist in some extremely non-diverse reality where your contact with people of any color is minimal and the groupthought of your community doesn't know better because they've never had to personally examine this issue, there have been so, so, sooooo many embarrassing and newsmaking instances of people doing that. Even then, if you still can't grasp why its wrong, the public humiliation and shaming would likely inspire people to re-think solely to avoid said humiliation and shaming.

In her defense, she's from Europe. But considering that she knows how I feel about the topic, I just expected her to have looked into it harder before approaching the topic the way she did. It really upset me. But we're working it out.

@Thenomain said:

All the time people complain that there is not enough ice cream that's not been done before, and you take them to a place that does burnt sugar and salted caramel and gelato made with real lilac, and they order vanilla.

Repeating an old idea does not mean it's not still very good. WoD By Night remains popular because of its popularity, as well as people's laziness. I don't think this is the hobby to count laziness as a cardinal sin, but we can still accept it for what it is.

But discouraging new ideas by saying "The old ways work just fine" is pretty much just encouraging stagnation rather than growth.

@surreality You seem like you have a mindset that could actually get me to give a shit about and invest in WoD.