@surreality said:
Using WoD as an example, if you are making a game in the Arctic designed for werewolves hunting down The Thing, and it says so on the tin, you are generally going to say no to the player who wants to come in and play (etc. etc.)
This shouldn't be a rule. It should be a definition of playing an RPG. You follow theme and setting. If you don't want to follow theme and setting, please find your entertainment elsewhere.
@Reason said:
@Thenomain said:
Those who publish, win.
For a second I lost track of myself -- are we discussing tenure or hobbies?
Aren't we fighting for defining what is acceptable in a fairly academic manner? So yes.
Second to Brus' Five Pillars of Staffing, I have enjoyed Eldritch's ethical guidelines, which are essentially "we are here to game, not to babysit you, so we won't."
I like the Five Pillars, because they are high level not to devolve the entire process into petty minutiae, as what tends to happen when people are more concerned with enforcing rules than using the rules to enable gameplay.
That is an awesome developer view, and I appreciate it, but to me, a Mu* is a toy, a toy for making tools, a toy for making toys, a toy for RP, a toy for pew pew combat mechanics, but foremost a toy. Or a structure for making toys.
I started by scripting internally, and I have helped get people excited about coding because of it, so to me, it's important.
What kind of Mushlike tools was I going to make? Well it depended on the shape of the server. Which is to say, we never got that far. You know, whatever. Probably nothing structured.
@Griatch said:
As a side note, I should point out that "server level access" is not what it once was.
This is an important note, yes, but I was summarizing for both expediency and to keep from making myself look like an idiot. I wouldn't have the time to review code that, e.g., makes an object follow me from room to room. I have come to trust the server itself to be trustworthy in making this something that can be performed without breaking security. Theno, install my Follow code! Theno, install these three different multidescers! Theno, one of the multidescers is not working please debug it! Theno, that bug has been in for months but people still use it even halfway broken can you take a moment to fix it for us please?
Yeah, this happens. The most fun was when someone fixed some of our code, it ended up more broken, and she refused to fix the bugs leaving me responsible for code that I subcontracted out so that I didn't have to worry about it in the first place. I can be pretty draconian about what I allow in the Master Room (game-wide code implementations) anymore.
Mind, I did promise @Chime that I would make the MUSHlike interfaces if she did what you guys are doing, so I am willing to make it happen. The question is do I have the time and drive. You know how that goes.
(Not a robot.)
@HelloProject
I have been a Headstaffer, and I've had mixed reactions to how approachable I was, but I was always available, almost always on the Pub channel making wise, and in the OOC lounge when I could deal with it, which considering the game this was wasn't very often. I certainly wasn't in the know and relied on my cohorts to fill me in on player issues, to which my response was mostly concerning lighting people on fire.
To concede to your point, being known is absolutely one key to being trusted. On Eldritch, I am in the OOC Lounge and in all of the channels. I don't tell people about my characters because I don't have any. I think I'm plenty social, but got quiet for a few weeks, and everyone being more social lately has helped the game's community.
The second key is being trustworthy, but that's a different discussion for another time.
I would like to immortalize @surreality's post for future generations about what the fundamental difference is between a Mud and a Mush.
Do not fear the Shitty First Draft.
@Ide said:
Given that some experienced softcoders write softcode offline and formatted anyway, the difference between mu* softcode and Evennia Python is a little fuzzy.
It's no guarantee that the content creators of a game have access to the server for uploading their creations. To try and make my point, I focus on the "builder" level of coding: setting up rooms, locks, descriptions, more locks, day/night ambiance effects, setting up places, views, and so forth.
A lot of the time builders are interacting with softcode and don't realize it; it's for this reason that I believe that Griatch is making the distinction between "main game development" (mostly what I do these days) and "in-game building" (and toy-making).
But let's face it, a lot of the cool Mush tricks that we've done over the years are because we didn't need server-level access to try new things. I built a repeat-until loop using nothing more than @trigger and @if and if you don't think that's fun then you're probably sane, but I didn't need to beg for server space or access to make increasingly complex and fun toys. If I did, then I probably wouldn't've bothered.
@HelloProject said:
I've always found the MUD side of our hobby to somewhat have the expectation of being like, super ultra professional rather than super casual like in MUSHes and such.
This explains why my first thought to @Jeshin's "a community is a board of directors" language was, "gigglesnort Yes, and I am CEO of my pants."
I still think it's silly, but seeing it in action I'm coming to the conclusion that the people who organize the games feel it's important, but the people who code the games don't really care, as long as they get to code.
My pants.
So this conversation deserves to be taken out of the Shadowrun! thread. Talking about Evennia started here :: http://musoapbox.net/topic/487/shadowrun/35
So I continue here.
@Thenomain said:
@Groth said:
Honestly I've always viewed softcode as a bug rather then a feature. Why would you ever want to insert code line by line through a chat client?
Those who publish, win.
If you're creating a new environment from scratch, why not <etc. etc. etc.>
That's something you should ask the Evennia guys. They have an IRC channel and I'm sure they'd appreciate the input. That's the impression I have gotten so far.
Me, I'm not here to imagine the perfect Mu* replacement. I just think that people who don't have access to the server code still need creation tools.
I realized after I posted this that I didn't pluck out something said by one of the Evennia developers:
As for softcode, it's certainly correct that Evennia does not support softcode out of the box. We choose to differentiate between using softcode for making the core of your game and using softcode for in-game building of cool objects etc. Our philosophy (right or wrong) is that the main game development is best done using Python, in a real text editor rather than inside a line-by-line mu* client. Today development tends to be done by smaller dev teams. Along with the advent of modern version control tools, this diminishes some of the old advantages of softcode, like not needing to give your co-coders access to your server.
For advanced building, Evennia usually recommends for your game to offer a suite of advanced builder commands for in-game users. There are no limits here though - you could expand this into a mini-language as befits your needs. We have a few MUSH/MUX developers developing using Evennia. So far they have all seemed happy to abandon the concept of softcode completely (or maybe this is a selection-effect since they are the kind of people who chose to use Evennia already?). What will rather come of their work is a group-building command suite. This will be made available soon(ish) as an Evennia contrib.
Now I sincerely doubt Griatch reads Soapbox, but it was probative to the whole Softcode thing.
Also, I'm pretty sure I agree with this approach. I certainly don't disagree with it. I use this a bit also in evidence that the Evennia group is reasonable about trying to be more than just a MUDlike. Maybe some day things will be EVlikes.
@Groth said:
Honestly I've always viewed softcode as a bug rather then a feature. Why would you ever want to insert code line by line through a chat client?
Those who publish, win.
If you're creating a new environment from scratch, why not <etc. etc. etc.>
That's something you should ask the Evennia guys. They have an IRC channel and I'm sure they'd appreciate the input. That's the impression I have gotten so far.
Me, I'm not here to imagine the perfect Mu* replacement. I just think that people who don't have access to the server code still need creation tools.
@HelloProject
Oh don't get me wrong. Sometimes I spazz out entirely. It's because that that I do try to keep it professional. I mean, I've spazzed out on you back on Wora-days, tho I suppose it's good that you've forgotten it or didn't consider it a spazz attack.
I am less sure that I'm spazzing in this thread, except the once where I try to explain to my emotional clone that I've been on his side. That whole post is me flipping my shit, but I don't think it comes as unexpected.
That I post in this thread at all should call into question my professionalism, but thanks for the compliment.
Seconding @Bobotron. Do it because you enjoy it, and when you feel the stress then it's okay to back off.
I don't see myself as smug. I see myself as opinionated, but I'm also eager to admit I'm wrong when I finally see it, and aware that it sometimes takes the head being tapped against a stone tablet with the words etched and on fire before I do see it.
I myself don't see that as "playing dumb", but as Theno Being Theno. I earnestly wish that I was quicker on the draw. Because of this, I do try to be understanding of the misreadings of others, but not when it comes hand-in-hand with pomposity (not smugness) and insults. I suspect Jaunt feels the same way.
I don't know if he enjoys crow as much as I do, though.
(edit: looks like less crow and more redirection, alas)
@Jaunt said:
I'm also not interested in flinging around insults and name-calling today.
Funny, you were interested when you called me insulting, then when you made presumptions about who I am and what I want, about my motives. I'm personally glad to hear you won't be doing any more of this. I'll try to act in kind.
It's just getting sort of boring.
It started boring months ago. I'm glad you're finally seeing this.
Moving on!
I didn't ignore the rest, I just had nothing to say about it. I don't feel the need to MST3k everything.
I'm not trying to marginalize OR, I'm trying to unspin the marketspeak.
I'm just as tired as you reading me as something I'm not as you say you're tired of me not engaging you in reasonable conversation. I find your definition of "reasonable conversation" to be smug, self-centered, and selfish. I'm tired of trying to find ways to think of you as not smug, self-centered, and selfish.
If you think "um ... what?" is not a lead-in to discussion, you can go fuck yourself with that close-minded presumption. (edit: likewise, the idea that every comment or criticism is a discussion, because dafuq?)
And I'll still post meaningful content when I have something to share.
And when you don't have something to share, too.
For fuck's sake, asshole, I encourage you to post meaningful things, even defended your updates as meaningful when other people were telling you to choke on your own dick.
So don't talk to me about negative cherry-picking and "ignoring the rest of the post", hypocrite.
@Reason said:
The core hang-up I've had about it is that there are so many, shall we say, "quality of life" components of a MU* that I've come to expect over the years that someone would need to go and explicitly extend into Evennia.
I love the term "quality of life" to explain this. Thank you for explaining it that way.
I mean, doesn't it feel a bit archaic to actually download and use a mush client?
In the same way that it feels archaic to download an MMO client. So not at all. What I think we miss in the Mu* world is what you do after you download the client. It certainly is yet another step to even see if you want to get involved in something.
I think among the largest barriers Evennia has is player adoption.
I promised @Chime that if she wanted to make a MUSHlike replacement, I would code for it. I'm stuck at the moment, because as of right now I have Volund being excited and exciting about Evennia, and on the other I have the Optional Realities community reps largely being snots hereabouts (my opinionated opinion only). We need more of the former, and less of the latter to get player interest.
I am clearly not a community cheerleader, but I try to make up by creating activity by being active.
I imagine that some straight forward extensions couldn't recreate elements of a BLDR experience similar to the existing experience.
This is, I think, the power of something like Evennia. @Chime mentioned very much the same thing about her imagined MUSHlike, and does if you go back and read everything she's ever said about MOO.
This discussion has digressed a bit. Go Shadowrun, I think!
@Jaunt said:
[@Thenomain] was actually being pretty insulting without posting much substance, which I don't think is beneficial to discussion.
I think you were being pretty insulting without providing any substance, and that you were purposefully getting in the way of discussion. And so the irony continues as two overly proud people talk past each other and blame one another for missing the point. If you know The Internet, this is a pattern that is well known.
While it doesn't excuse me to get into the "no you" dance*, it also doesn't excuse you from doing the same. Which is a point I made in there twice, and you were happy to continue playing the blame-game, like you are here. There are many people who post here who can ignore the "no you" game.
I am myself waiting for this nice-guy Jaunt who was advertised some time ago by this guy named Jaunt, but instead even without my involvement all we get this aggressively defensive, blame-fingering Jaunt who is all about Being Right.
I once again appreciate the irony.
@Reason said:
I don't think there are any games actively running Evennia.
Yeah, but they want active games running Evennia, don't they.