If anyone is interested in these concepts, but prefers the concepts to be explained in a more digestible or less "religiousy/vague" format, check this book out
The Dharma of Star Wars https://a.co/d/fdDD5zc
Concepts like "Anakin's attachment to Padme became a source of negativity to him, and in his aversion to her dying (which everyone does) caused damage to himself and others." Help puts things in perspective for the nerdier mind.
@Wizz I can share my own interest in the analysis, at the least.
Over years of MU I've collected a handful of experiences. Cuckold RL husband watching TS, accusations of triggering RL relationship hangups with spouses, OOC oversharing, repeated pages asking what my OOC kinks are, being told "I love you" in a relationship sense, plenty of clinginess, hell hath no fury threats or issues when trying to politely exit IC relationship stuff, lots of paging about "always being chosen second", OOC guilting, etc etc etc. The list goes on. I could probably list 20 or so things I've experienced first or second hand.
It's my belief than dozens of MUers can, too.
My mindset is that people could continue to act as if these OOC blowups regarding IC relationship roleplay, the stalking, the baseless forum accusations that omg couldnt be anything but true are singular instances every single time, be wowed at them as if they don't happen weekly, and get really good at staying out of it. OR delve into asking really why that is and attempting to ferret out an understanding.
I believe that there are two camps of relationship roleplayers: People who do it healthily and people who do it to satisfy personal (physical/emotional) deficiencies and grow unhealthy attachments to players, characters, or the need for the jolt TS/relationship RP brings.
I believe that one type of RPer wants to avoid OOC attachment forming, and that the other won't declare what they're looking for because it could lead to being avoided (if even theyre aware enough to understand the thirst).
I've grown to believe that there are players who approach the hobby as a writing hobby, and others who approach the hobby as a form of "Second Life" due to a disappointing RL where character is player and negative IC results are taken far more seriously on an OOC level, perhaps even a dangerous one.
So, you either avoid it and stay in your lane, or you ask the Danger Zone questions and try to identify what it is and find RPers of similar mindset to avoid these trap/bait-and-switch scenarios.
So when someone says "you" instead of "she" or pages you to ask what your kinks are, is it really cooperative writing, or is something else going on?
I think it's a worthier topic in this hobby than some others.
ETA: I'm not entirely sure that I have the willpower to address that gently. I told her that Irish immigrants were indentured servitude and had rights, unlike chattel slavery, but if it turns into an argument, I dont know if I can keep Jim Halpert WTF from turning into...
I hope you're not unironically defending the practise of indentured servitude.
Hey folks, just checking in at the end of the weekend. In answer to your question, @Groth ?
Absolutely not.
Bad is bad, period, but my sarcastic gifs and whatnot to my original post were due to a bit of incredulity from the white Irish indentured servants were treated worse than any other ethnic group in American history statement this friend of mine on FB posted.
Sure, it's a subjective topic, but it's one I'm sure the Native American and African-imported kidnapped chattel slavery historians would have an opinion or two on. That's all. I don't exactly see where any point in my original statement might have suggested unironically supporting one form of slavery over the other?
@Roz said it well: "If you compare the horrors of two things, and you call thing A more horrific, is that...defending thing B???"
@Derp Yeah I saw the other thread first and was about to ask "what in the mildly constructive fuck?" Glad I checked this other one first
a worst case scenario only needs to happen once.
this information may be useful to people in terms of password security, security hardening on MUs, and protecting their identities
identifying the holes is step 1 to filling them.
My advice?
Establish SSL for encrypted login data transmission as a standard, verify that databases are encrypted and that login IP information is only available to head wiz and only stored for 30 days. When new staff is hired their identities should be shared with the game owner (if they have access to personal data) and in a perfect world staff might do something to vet that the person is who they say they are and don't have a recorded history of abusive behavior, sex offender database, etc.
Mostly just be aware that this hobby is built primarily on insecure/outdated technology, that code bases and staffing procedures could be rife with vulnerabilities, and to be very aware with this while engaging in highly personal conversation or simulated situations with absolute strangers.
Like it or not, the truth is that we may talk about people here on MSB that behave like sexual predators, but should never forget that we may never know if they're taking their game online because theyre a convicted sex offender in RL.
Preemptively, before the Hog Pit kills us.
402 represent.
I'm from the era when Ak-Sar-Ben hosted concerts and the Lancers, saw Manson and Gwar at the Ranch Bowl, and am relieved as hell that Sokol is still playing shows.
Good to know there's people from the banks of the muddy river around here.
@faraday said in Stranger Danger?:
@Hella said in Stranger Danger?:
I enforce firm boundaries, period. IC, OOC, all the boundaries, everywhere.
Oh yes, very true. I only call out IC relationships specifically because that's been the #1 source of boundary issues through the years.
Which makes sense, because "ic relationships" sometimes seem to be tied to RL personal vulnerabilities, so it's a minefield.
A few people have told me that they adamantly believe that all Mu chars are extensions of the players, and disagreed when I said that a player could be so divorced from the concept of the PC that it could be treated as a separate entity. So if you combine this concept with the sheer vulnerability some people wade into in IC relationships, it's no wonder why the boundary issues happen.
This isn't meant to be provocative, but with all this in mind it is wholly possible that someone in an IC relationship with your character, even if they're not aware of it, may be getting that feedback as actual intimacy. This in mind, it then makes it possible that some players may have felt they had some kind of actual relationship with the player or character, which forms an attachment. When the other player goes away, it turns into some kind of grieving (loss, sadness, anger, retaliation).
^ I write this because it again highlights how quickly these things can get personal despite your best intentions, and whoever it is they say they are one needs to just hope they're stable enough not to impact your RL.
https://6session.wordpress.com/2009/04/08/ipv6-martian-and-bogon-filters/
Honestly? If I was hosting a MU on my home router, the dangers of potentially allowing IPv6 bogons to access my home network (an anonymous person who wants to play Shadowrun) outweighs a player not being able to connect via IPv4.
IPv6 transition (to IPv4) mechanisms have a nasty security risk of allowing outbound communication that cannot be detected by most network intrusion detection systems.
So if someone told me "Hey, update your home network so that this guy you don't know can connect via IPv6 to your home server to play an online game" I'd:
Bogons are widely used tech terminology, and IPv6 transmits IP information that appears bogus to IPv4 unless greater translation efforts are put in place. On a corporate level this gets handled more often than not, but a good home security tip is to disable IPv6 on your home router unless you have a specific reason to allow IPv6 connections through your home network.
So, in short, it may have been possible for someone connecting via IPv6 through an insecure home router to enable one-way logging for all users to their home device.
@SinCerely said in RL Anger:
@Ghost The only partners I've had that didn't cry about the heat have been women, so there's my correlation with testicle-temp being key. My rage is mostly facetious.
Also we use all the god damn body wash because it makes us smell like our partners all day and that's nice. Or at least, that's the way it is for me.
Well...since you put it that way, consider my perceptions expanded and I now find myself oddly okay with it. I'm going to do my best not to do the guy thing and ask if she uses all of my body wash to smell like me, because then she'll probably say "when you don't use enough it always runs out before I'm done scrubbing" and the mystique will be ruined.
As for testicle temperature? I dunno about that. Never been an issue with me.
FAKE DOUCHEBAG EDGELORD COMMENT IN 3...2...
My junk runs naturally hot.
@Tapewyrm said in Stranger Danger?:
I rarely play IC relationships with others, unless they're my actual RL partner, since I like to save that side of myself for that person, and it saves on drama.
That's a great policy to have; it stops it before it starts.
Do you have issues finding/maintaining RP with players once they find out you're not open to IC-relationship stuff? That was always kind of my issue: I was able to find a lot of available RP, but people would suddenly have "electrical storm" or "rl emergency" or "sorry gotta go" when it was established I wasn't into TS/relationship RP with the person.
@killer-klown Thanks for the seconding about IPv6.
One thing you definitely learn in IT is that it isn't always the technological vulnerability that is your biggest threat, but perhaps a threat in process. A good example of this is texting a challenge code on a password change to a registered mobile device (something the user will have on them) to avoid the risks associated with a call center person just changing a password because the person on the phone claims to be who they say they are.
So, to come full circle on the topic, I welcome game runners and players to look back at my previous questions.
Since telnet xmits UID/Passwords in clear text, do a quick audit to determine if ANY of your mu logins are using your email or banking passwords.
People really should consider the role of staff access to PII (personally identifiable information), ip logging, and how that information is stored as an important topic. Since MU uses outdated tech, less security-minded architecture, and no admin standards, it'll be processes that protect players' PII more than tech. Might be a good topic: MU Security Best Practices or something.
Players need to be aware that your "identity" isn't just limited to what you tell people. Data aggregation is a thing, and people are always more clever when they have a game plan. Anything that can be used as a starting point for research is useful, be it a screen name, an email address, or an IP address. It doesn't matter if you give a fake name or are mum on your private details if insecure data leads malicious attackers to the truth regardless.
These are things all people should know about the vulnerabilities of this hobby's technology, and worth keeping in mind.
My SO showed me the pockets in her jeans, once.
Women's pockets are buuuullshit. My man-pants can hold 3x what she can in her lady-jeans.
I empathize with women when it comes to their shitty lot in life when it comes to women's clothing that can't fit a cell phone in them. In fact, the jeans I'm wearing right now have two big back pockets and a sub-pocket next to my right buttcheek that is designed specifically for a smartphone.
A travesty, it is.
@faraday I've done that before. Change the password to some random pounding of keys like jb4i48vuHABnw9c8!#34 and then logout.
@nemesis I don't...exactly understand why you're fighting this so much when the general Infosec and IT community disagrees with you. So I'll leave you with reading from sources that clearly have no idea what they're talking about.
NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology): https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/sp/800-119/final#pubs-abstract-header
OWASP (a bunch of chumps who are an international organization renowned as the tip of the spear in dealing with web/info vulnerabilities. It's OWASP top 10 is considered a fair standard for the top 10 security risks at ANY given time. They don't know anything, but they wrote a completely bogus thing on IPv6 vulnerabilities that I'm sure you knew about): https://www.owasp.org/index.php/File:Vulnerability_Scanning_in_an_IPv6_World.pdf
If you would like to try ARP spoofing using IPv6 on an IPv4 network, here you go: https://insinuator.net/2016/03/multicast-based-ipv6-neighbor-spoofing-response-behavior-on-cisco-devices/
Anyway, I'm gonna stop there. You're out of your damned mind if you think there isn't a widely sploited IPv6 vs IPv4 vulnerability for MITM attacks, and the rest of the IT world as a whole disagrees with you. Who am I to say, though? Maybe they're all wrong about their bogus terms such as boguns and vulnerabilities and 200+ videos on YouTube about IPv6 MITM attacks and IP spoofing. I'm not going to argue with you about this. You were factually wrong from the start. Let it go.
And I assure you in no way that I'm not reading, right now, about how to use socat to tunnel IPv6 through IPv4.
Anyway, this got derailed. Don't listen to this guy (he doesn't know shit) and an IPv6 attack against a home router that isn't protected from it is a potential vulnerability.
The point is that IP information gathered by MUs are a potential attack vector.
But best cop show since The Wire? Just off the top of my head I'd rank both Justified and Southland (tragically cut short) ahead of it, and if I spent a little time thinking about it, I'd find more
Oh I know, I was just joking.
Though Captain Holt has basically shown me how RPing as a Vulcan could be fun.
@kestrel said in Heroic Sacrifice:
So the question becomes, as a game creator, how do you tackle this? How do you encourage your playerbase to step back a little from their need to play heroes? From their need to avoid obstacles, reject risks/stakes, and inhibit progression or complexity in a story?
I don't think that this can be done on any MU.
For the most part, MU culture doesn't flock to mushing because they want a lot of complication that they won't be able to control. They're looking for complication and conflict that is titillating, but not frustrating. You're talking about a lot of people who are going online to write and roleplay fantasies with a strong emphasis of escaping the elements of their daily lives where they cannot control the outcome.
I've mushed for over a decade, and if you look close enough you'll see this forum (and I've seen its predecessors) touch point on this every few months or so. This will never, ever, ever, ever be resolved due to the general pulse of the MU community.
In short: For a number of people, this is gaming. For a larger number of people, this is writing.
I personally advise you find, keep track of, and do your best to maintain positive relationships with people with similar mindsets, but understand that you're going to be surrounded by players with this hero concept that you described. You'll often hear it as the "My Story" concept, where when they make a character, their concern is for my story, and they want to ensure that my story is fulfilling for them. The general idea is that whether they're reasonable about it or selfish, it's that losing (pc death, failure, etc) isn't fun, and that others should be willing to find ways to also accommodate resolutions to the story that are fun for everyone (in the way that some people argue on behalf of everyone when it really is arguing for their own characters).
So in the least negative way possible, I'm advising you to just let it go.
Now, from a GM perspective? If you want to show people that their OOC desires aren't going to run the show, the best way to do so is by mandating dice rolling. Dice rolls ensure that it isn't the will of the OOC personality that mandates pass/fail. Without dice, many mushers have learned that OOC tactics work best for cutting the red tape: Making friends, roleplaying within cliques, character assassination, being difficult until they're given what they want, manipulation, schmoozing with staff, etc.
Not intentionally being negative, but as a musher what you're asking will be something you will struggle with for your entire time mushing.
Did some research. Houghton Mifflin owns the rights to produce Mein Kampf in the States, and donates all royalties from sales of the book to charities that focus on cultural acceptance.
I did...NAZI that one coming.
I guess publishing it led to a movement to remove all HM books from schools in the 40s, but HM has argued basically that for better or worse it's a culturally impacting/important book and (sic) that its best left for people to read and understand it for however ignorant, hateful, or stupid it is. (I agree.)
So...thats pretty awesome. You can buy a copy of it to keep on a shelf of historically important books without the guilt of the money going into some Neo-Nazi's hands.
ETA: Dammit, @Tinuviel beat me to it.
I would Heavy Gear or Robotech my ass off.
Just sayin'
CAVEAT: So long as they don't use the Palladium RPG System, because fuck that noise. While I don't terribly mind the percentile dice system, there is no way a MU would survive a single combat scene where 6 different PCs and multiple combat opponents each got 3+ turns per round.
@Auspice said in TS - Danger zone:
I do want to point out that 'RL spouse getting angry' isn't something to hold against the person.
I had that happen. I casually mentioned TS (as a thing that I did sometimes; not like a specific scene lol) once because he knew I RP'd. He LARPed. He'd been an MMO RPer. I figured it was nbd.
Boy flipped his shit at me. Now, I want to say I didn't bring it on the game or say anything. I don't think I did because I got mad at him for it. @Ghost can fact check me tho cause this happened while Cyri and Nitrim were a thing.
Anyway. RL SOs aren't something to lump in with the rest IMO.
Consider fact checked and agreed.
RL spouse getting upset isn't something I hold against a player, but it is definitely their issue, not mine. I dont care how good or bad someone's RL relationship is. After a first incident of angry spouse I may have avoided that kind of RP with the person afterward because the last thing I wanted was to be some third party online homewrecker in a divorce.
Either way, if anyone said to me "Hey let's not RP these characters as a couple because my RL partner/spouse isn't comfortable with it" I've always honored that, and think that's a great way to handle it.
