Posts made by Ghost

@ThatGuyThere Do you remember Secondary Skills? I liked those. oWoD had all kinds of secondary skills and super-type specific knowledge/lore skills to buy up, which I think was a better way to go than ACADEMICS, which makes you just as good at understanding ANCIENT ROME as you are at understanding THE HISTORY OF NEPAL.

The way it appears to me, NWoD wanted to streamline XP use so that there weren't so many skills to buy (which, newer RPGs really are minimizing the # of skills to buy in play. Rolemaster had HUNDREDS of skills. Newer RPGs are skills-lite).

@Derp said in Fate's Harvest BETA Live (Full Open Soon):

But can we maybe take Spider related anecdotes to a different thread so we can maybe focus on the game as a whole in this one, please and thank you? I'm sure if people really care they can follow it there.

Well spoken. Thank you.

The point that I'm trying to make is when you have a skills system that rolls up 'all crafts' into crafts, then a merit (such as PT) that makes it easier to have access to 8/9/rote in every single craft known to mankind is an exacerbation of the problem.

There is now a fairly cheap way to get 8/9/rote in all uses of a skill, and that is PT.

@surreality said in CofD and Professional Training:

@Ghost That's a problem with the overly broad skills in WoD, not a problem with PT.

Is what you're describing it any less ridiculous without PT? Nah, because their pool for Crafts is the same for all of those things with or without PT. Which is already oceans of dumb.

Right, but PT exacerbates that problem

@Auspice Fuck yeah, homie

@Meg Fair enough, no love lost. Especially if she's still behaving in ways that make people wanna avoid her. Current behavior is just where I set the stance.

I've had some mega fallout moments with a few people over the years and, after giving them a second chance (or vice versa) and talking things over, things turned out pretty well. So I like to always leave some kind of crack in the door, because if there's no one to RP with, then why bother?

Just my stance on things, but if anyone misbehaves, whatevs, boot to ass

Edit: In all fairness, she is one of maybe 4 reasons the FC Changeling sphere got wrecked so early on. Being there for that sucked.

@Cupcake said in Fate's Harvest BETA Live (Full Open Soon):

@Ghost said in Fate's Harvest BETA Live (Full Open Soon):

Personally I think it's sad that this person isn't being given the opportunity to attempt roleplay with updated behavior.

I'm not a friend of hers, nor do I role play with her, but all patterns aside, there are people in this hobby far more deserving of scarlet letters on the loose who don't suffer the same degree of scrutiny.

I, for one, refuse to partake in this witch hunt behavior.

Have you un-retired from mushing?

Because this comes off as proclaiming the higher moral ground in a race you have no horse in.

Stick to the topic and stop trying to bait.

I don't have to have a personal stake in a game to think its sad that someone is getting the hin treatment.

Now, if Spider is misbehaving? THE BOOT IN THE ASS. I just dislike that she gets all of this spewed hate while there are some definitely rapey/stalky types running free.

Bonus points for people who make Anglo-appearing Russians from east of Moscow and refer to themselves as Asian

Personally I think it's sad that this person isn't being given the opportunity to attempt roleplay with updated behavior.

I'm not a friend of hers, nor do I role play with her, but all patterns aside, there are people in this hobby far more deserving of scarlet letters on the loose who don't suffer the same degree of scrutiny.

I, for one, refuse to partake in this witch hunt behavior.

However, the 8/9/rote bonus from PT doesn't clarify that it should be reserved to simple tasks.

For example, if an artist character has PT: Artist to rank 5, they'll have 8/9/rote on all crafts checks.

Now, realistically, a well trained artist (using chef as an example) should be able to craft a better than normal ham and cheese sandwich, reasonably, with rote successes, but when it comes to complex, highly difficult, or experimental meals, the degree of difficulty and attention required comes up, and I don't feel that even famous chefs like Gordon Ramsay do highly difficult things so simply.

I have zero doubt that Gordon Ramsay could cook me up a super-nice, rote-grade version of macaroni and cheese with his eyes closed, but where PT is concerned, Gordon Ramsay (crafts5 w 8/9/rote) could approach the following as if they were as difficult as making macaroni and cheese:

• Making a katana
• Cooking a Michelin Star grade meal for the Queen of England
• a birthday cake made out of human skin
• Recreating the Mona Lisa with matching brush strokes
• Making a samurai grade suit of lamellar armor to go along with a Hanzo sword of his own design.

This is where I think PT is broken. IMO the benefits should all be restricted to uses WITHIN SAID PROFESSION and the rote usage should be restricted to dice rolls that are not considered extended dice rolls.

Be it NWoD or CofD, I've seen too many people apply benefits of PT to other used outside of their professional training. Staff should make this distinction and keep an eye on it.

In short: Being an expert pastry chef with 8/9/rote on crafts rolls should never be applied to forging Hattori Hanzo katana

Edit/Afterthought: It is my belief that the draw for PT isn't to have 8/9/rote in <skillname> rolls pertaining to profession, but to have 8/9/rote in all uses of that skill, which is overpowered and, IMO, gamebreaking.

These really are good points. MUers change emails so often, and plenty of burner emails are given out to games because no one wants their game stuff intermingling with their actual RL identities. This his how everyone on SerenityMU ended up getting a LinkedIn request from Mal @ SerenityMush.

There's an imaginary line for most MUers. My game stays on one side, and my RL stays on the other, so there's no reason to give an actual, useful email address to a game when your IP is marked every time you log in with a bit. IPs are used to block players, not email addresses.

There may be some useful contact/notification purposes for having emails, but the stance I sense from most players is I will decide when MU is important, and I don't want MU chasing me down when I'm not choosing to log in.

@surreality This is a discussion on our opinions and viewpoints on PT in CofD, and I've given them. I've stated reasoning outside of just the question on whether or not 8/9/rote should be limited to equipment/supernatural means, and it was versed as a philosophical question, leading into a few angles on my own interpretation.

WoD has a very rich history since 1st generation of systems, powers, and designs flaws (Secrets of the True Black Hand, for example) that were later interpreted as mistakes, which led to the creation of NWoD, and later CofD. A good number of things done away with seemed to be scrapped due to the original ideas simply being bad ideas (combo disciplines, etc). I personally believe that PT is one of these things that will go down as a mistake due to failed implementation, abuse, and unhinging the balance between mortals and supernaturals.

Disagree with me all you like, but I'm sure you're capable of doing so while remaining civil and without attacking people through their ideas. I simply request that you do so.

@surreality I don't appreciate the tone you're taking with me on a constructive thread, when I'm merely stating my viewpoint on a mechanic. I would appreciate it if you turned down the snide attitude a measure.

Having said that, if you feel strongly that the existence of the mechanic itself is proof positive that it's appropriate and not overpowered, you're welcome to your opinion on the matter. Clearly, I have a different viewpoint, and that's okay.

@surreality said in CofD and Professional Training:

Then explain how anyone can get it from using a shotgun.

The shotgun has a superhuman ability to spray metal pellets at speeds of over 1000fps. In that, the accuracy and damage output from a shotgun is far more deadly than any human could throw pellets for damage. The 'again' from the shotgun isn't because of the human, it's because of the spray/spread of the weapon.

So, if the shotgun allows the 'again' on rolls because of its freakish ability to spread damage across a pattern, this still lends towards the idea that humans simply aren't capable of generating their own 8/9again/rote degrees of skill/accuracy on their own.

CofD PT is way less overpowered than NWoD, at least in terms of XP usage, but CofD has a lot of good tie-ins for receiving XP for your role play choices, which seems to be like a direct reaponse to the cheeseball minmaxing antics that were rampant in NWoD

But, still, isnt the existence of 9/again, 8/again, rote in the Supernatural creatures usually related to their supernatural age/power?

Two things I'm not a fan of with PT that doesnt matter if it's CofD or NWOD:

1. I don't think any skill should be rote without a very good explanation. Army Snipers may be some of the most talented marksmen available, and even they don't shoot as if it is rote. So logically, people may argue it, but I can't think of a lot of important stuff that is rote. Tasks? Making coffee? Making a bed? Macaroni and Cheese? Perhaps those skills, but ALL uses of driving skill are considered rote because of high level training? So, by nature of training, a highly trained NASCAR driver can go psssh and do wheelies on a Ducati racing bike?

Ehhhhhhhhh...

2. If the assumption is that the supernatural types have 8/9/agains or rote rolls due to being stronger or faster than humans, older and having extended lifespans, or other supernatural elements that make them exceptional athletes or craftsmen, then I don't see where mere professional training would ever, in a mortal lifespan, equate to supernatural levels of skill.

So, to me, PT (be it CofD or NWOD) seems like character sheet padding and playing mortal with supernatural dice levels to avoid being limited to standard Attr+Skill rolls.

Even if the XP benefit issue is resolved in CofD, the spirit of the game, purpose behind the setting, and logic built into PT aren't taken into account.

PT doesn't sound right at all from a GM perspective to me, but from a player perspective? Helloooooo 9/again/rote on firearms skills.

@Ganymede @ThatGuyThere But even with it being restricted to mortals and if staff monitors to ensure that backgrounds and character types match the PT they've chosen:

(i.e. "My character's a prostitute (empathy and subterfuge), but since those asset skills are useless in day to day rp I'm going to put in her background that she used to be a professional target shooter (crafts and firearms), but have no intention of continuing her lifestyle as a pro shooter past cgen, this is all just background stuff, but I want her to be able to make stuff and shoot guns despite 85% of her time she's blowing dudes.")

Even then, merits are less expensive than skills. So PT is a great way to spend 2xRating XP to make it possible to buy skills at 2xRating instead of 3xRating, then end up with a 'rote' action on a firearms roll?

Still, IMO, cheeseball and OP

Let's take it a step further, too?

A lot of the WoD games in the MuSphere have some fairly ancient characters with a boatload of XP, and the ones that allow PT (such as Fallcoast) honor the xp benefits and free specialties during chargen. So, in theory, you're foolish for not taking PT and sinking a max of 30 xp for the following benefits:

30 xp (PT level 5) gets you:
(note that only 1 dot in the asset skill is required in the PT coming out of chargen, even if you have PT5)

• One free skill specialty 3xp value
• Another free skill specialty at PT2 3xp value
• Specialties cost 2xp instead of 3 at PT3 1xp per specialty saved
• Asset skills cost 2x rating instead of 3x rating
• Asset skill#1 purchase 1-5 30xp (instead of 45)
• Asset skill#2 purchase 1-5 30xp (instead of 45)
• Five Dots in Contracts value: 10-30xp value

Final tally:
During chargen, for the expenditure of 30xp (which the savings alone comes from the 15xp per asset skill discount), you get the following:

Cost with PT:

• 2 skills at rank 5, one of which can be used as a 'rote' action (will cost you an additional 30xp per skill, but at reduced cost)
• 2 free specialties
• Five dots in contracts
  Total: 90xp

Cost without PT:

• 6xp for the specialties
• 90xp for two skills at rank 5
• 10-30xp for the Contacts merits (depending on whether or not they are 5 contacts in 5 different fields, or taken as 5 points in contacts in ONE field)
  Total: 106-136xp

I'm pretty sure my math is accurate on this, I'm sure someone will tell me if it's wrong, but my point is this: PT is cutting corners to maximize dice output and reduce cost in skills, whereas any given character who doesn't take PT has to pay the costs outright, DESPITE ROLEPLAYING AS A MEMBER OF THIS PROFESSION.

From a roleplaying perspective, there shouldn't be a single trained bartender in existence without the PT(Bartender) merit, since they've trained as a bartender! Then, technically, when spending time working as a bartender, shouldn't they be forced to spend XP to explain the skills they've gained as a bartender? After all, how could they properly RP a bartender with no dots or training in the profession? If they're spending XP on firearms, but have no PT or points in the asset skills of a bartender, then they'd be a shit bartender, right?

Eh. Altogether PT reads to me as a clever way to skirt around xp costs to maximize character dice output, but not from a game/in character perspective, but from the perspective of a player who realizes that buying shit at 2xRating or 3xRating eats up XP fast, and they want the biggest bang for their buck coming out of Cgen.

End soapbox? TL;DR?
Cheeseball, corner-cutting garbage, PT is. IMO

To curl back into Professional Training:

You have the spirit of the rules and the letter of the rules, right?

I'm gonna venture out to say that a lot of the time the draw for professional training, from the player perspective, is to get that 9/again or the other perks that come with it. They usually want those perks to be used for augmentation of other rolls. A 9/again for social rolls means shit on a game where social combat doesnt take place, but comes in very handy in say, Changeling Contract rolls that use said social stats.

Its kind of like how you could add fighting style fencing to all kinds of shit and come out of chargen doing 5-6 automatic damage on a fencing roll, yet people wanted to apply fencing to broadswords.

WoD was designed to make the dots fit the character, not the dots fit the player's dice pool. If a character has a certain build, they should be expected to have a background, playstyle, and personality to match.

So in this, a massive social monkey character who didn't spend points in socialize shouldn't be very good at socializing, dice rolls or no. The stat isn't there. But in many cases what I see are highly sociable characters with no dots in skills they RP their chars appear to be very good at, but disnt take the skill because they needed the dice for other rolls that they would need more frequently...like claymore fencing for auto damage.

Spirit vs letter.

Professional training is used to abuse this concept, IMO

Social combat is important because nearly every player is interested in their social game succeeding, but very few players are willing to organically choose to lose in social situations.

Almost every time I've chosen to lose on a MU (because it made sense ICly) I tend to get pages asking if I'm ruining the character on purpose

These games have plenty of win and lose, but combat is avoided altogether by certain players because there is dice supported winning and losing in combat.

For this reason alone, social dice rolls are important and should be used.

PT is cheeseball garbage designed to fill out a character sheet will all kinds of higher-priced items for cheap. I absolutely hate it. Players should earn the dots on their sheet through RP, not cheese the system to get better dice rolls.

Flash is currently in Boston, going on adventures with Marky Mark and his talking bear.