Posts made by Gingerlily

@Three-Eyed-Crow said in Why do you play? (Or not.):

@Scissors said in Why do you play? (Or not.):

And honestly, even in my college days I never understood the appeal of getting uproariously drunk together as a social event, which seems to be the most common party option available. I just feel it's better to do something creative with people with similar interests.

Same, honestly. I come from a family with looooooooooooooooooots of alcoholism going on, so binge drinking culture grossed me out. This is probably why I got more into MU*ing while in college, along with the other obvious gateways like a more active campus nerd culture than my high school had, and part-time computer lab job.

I actually started MU*ing in college but during the second half. During the first half I did...other stuff and then I went to rehab and then I found suddenly I had so much empty time and no idea how to fill it! I'd written a paper on MUDs during one of the 'first-half' years and even though I'd only popped on a few to look at how they worked and 'interview' a few players and admins, I remembered they seemed kind of like possible fun. So I started playing and hey wow, suddenly the hours flew by! I could get all kinds of rushes from game things, and it was there -whenever I wanted- day or night to entertain me. Was it the most conventional way to stay clean? Likely not. Would some shrinks have suggested I was replacing one addiction with another type? Totally, but it was much less likely to kill me in a given evening.

My reasons for playing have changed a great deal since then, but that was my original and it was a pretty solid one. It worked.

@Thenomain said in Strange Game Dev Inquiries from surreality (condensed):

@Gingerlily

I think you and I (and possibly also @Three-Eyed-Crow and probably also @Ghost) are trying to bend the consensus that "non-constructive" doesn't always mean "using insulting words".

On Wora (since we're now merging this thread and the MSB Meta-Discussion thread), the exact rule was, "Attack the idea, not the person." This is what @Arkandel was reminding people of. I'll be honest I didn't think that @bored's original argument was attacking the person, tho I think that he and @surreality did slip into that without using the same four-letter words that Ghost did.

Here, the exact phrasing is, "Something besides the equivalent of 'NO YOU'. That shouldn't be hard, right?" But this isn't a rule. We were pretty hard-assed about the rule on Wora, while here we are, coming close to discussing what "constructive" really means. I think we can both agree that "no you" happened before Ghost raised the middle finger.

But then, we're both +1ing each other so much that people might think we'd need some alone-time. I'm not just preaching to the choir here, though, I promise.

Agreed, We don't want to creep people out with the +1s

I just think it is so easy to pause for a moment and consider 'what is the purpose in expressing this thought this way?" and also the 'Is this going to be hurtful to someone' and if it is then 'Why does hurting them feel okay to me?' Different people have different feelings, introspection, etc about that kind of thing. But I think if more people stopped to ask those questions, some of the dialogue here would be different. Not all. Maybe not even most.

This is usually the kind of thing people dig their heels way into on however, because whatever their opinion (be kind, treat others with patience and respect) to (Let it ALLLL out, people have thick skins, they can take it, trash those who deserve trashing!) or something in between, they got their via their own stuff. C'est la Vie or something.

@Thenomain said in Strange Game Dev Inquiries from surreality (condensed):

@Gingerlily said in Strange Game Dev Inquiries from surreality (condensed):

And I'd comment that its derailing from the original topic which isn't very cool of me but it was pretty derailed anyway.

I was going to poke light fun at @Ghost for participating in the angry derailing this thread after the diatribe in the "MSB Meta Thread" about how derailing threads (mostly advertisement threads) was evil. I was going to ask, "So now do you understand why people might go into an advertisement thread and remind others what this person did elsewhere on the boards?"

Then I wasn't, because I didn't want to derail the thread any further and I didn't want to be actually mean to Ghost.

Then I did, because I still like how context changes people's views pretty drastically, I found a way to frame the sentiment as a way that isn't mean, and it's not like I can derail the thread any more.

It's mockery that is delivered with warmth and love that is the best mockery. The context thing was funny too. I didn't follow up with any 'Thus Proving My Point!!!' because no point gets proven, no consensus agreed upon, and that is all fine with me.

@Three-Eyed-Crow said in Strange Game Dev Inquiries from surreality (condensed):

@Gingerlily said in Strange Game Dev Inquiries from surreality (condensed):

@Arkandel

So this thread inspires a question for you.

MSB a net positive for the hobby, or nah?

I'm gonna answer seriously anyway.

I think there was constructive discussion in this thread before it got bogged down in a fight between @bored and @surreality

His fault mainly, though there's a point long long ago where I would've just stop responding to shit like this (I'm pretty quick to disengage and do not go back) so, like the drug trade, nobody gets away clean.

I think I also said previously I wouldn't have brought an idea at this stage to the general populace because I don't think general input is helpful except in either very late (when it's almost an ad thread but you're bug and interest-checking) or very early (actual brainstorming in which no firm ideas are present) stages of development.

Whether this thread should've been split when it became a dumb fight is a thing I have opinions on, but they're bullshit opinions. I'm neither mod nor person who started this thing.

Answering questions that aren't questions can be entertaining and/or used as a segue to add your thoughts and opinions. I never expected to taunt @Arkandel on a public forum in this manner and not have the question responded to anyway. And I'd comment that its derailing from the original topic which isn't very cool of me but it was pretty derailed anyway.

@Arkandel said in Strange Game Dev Inquiries from surreality (condensed):

@Gingerlily said in Strange Game Dev Inquiries from surreality (condensed):

@Arkandel

So this thread inspires a question for you.

MSB a net positive for the hobby, or nah?

PostScript: This is not an actual question, I am trolling Ark because it just seemed to work here.

I think people can disagree, even fight, anywhere. I've seen similar arguments taking place on a public channel, for example.

MSB doesn't have the exclusive on these things, you know? Sometimes it doesn't go well and folks walk away pissed off. Other times a disagreement can be civil - I don't think @Ghost is hoping I get food poisoning, for example.

-Still was not an actual question! But I you.

@Arkandel

So this thread inspires a question for you.

MSB a net positive for the hobby, or nah?

PostScript: This is not an actual question, I am trolling Ark because it just seemed to work here.

PostPostScript: @surreality, it sucks that your posting regarding gave dev questions on the Mildly Constructive topic got to the place it did. It would be a shame if you dropped a project you were excited about over people's words -here-. I hope you don't. I hope people keep putting the work into making games because more games to play on is good. It's a lot of time and energy investment to staff on a game much less develop one yourself. The site seems to have established elsewhere that people just being cool to one another is not a thing that can be made to work. I don't have amazing advice, my advice could be shitty. But people being uncool to you here likely has no correlation to what you could create and how much you and others would enjoy it.

@Auspice said in Why do you play? (Or not.):

It's easy... and by easy, I mean it doesn't demand a lot of energy from me. It's a way I can engage with people, even if I'm physically 'shot' enough that just getting out of bed is hard. Just because I may be having a shit fibro day doesn't mean I may not want to be able to interact with people and chat and have fun. I can have fun and RP and 'hang' all while kicking back on the couch in my PJs.

Especially lately... I can't play video games because of the migraines. And I largely avoid going out because of the vertigo. Sometimes I can't RP. But I'm more likely to be able to RP than anything else (even if I've had to bow out a number of times or keep to slow/one-on-one scenes).

This is a post simply for migraine solidarity. It is part of why I like Mu too, its pretty flexible, even when I had committed to doing something people were usually pretty understanding when I had to cancel or bow out. I enjoy the writing, the characters, the challenges, but totally appreciate the flexibility.

I have tried to find what I want to focus on here because there is a lot happening and a lot to consider on the stuff people have mentioned.

It is obviously clear that people have very different perceptions regarding what is nasty and pointless and what is criticism that is purposeful. That's not a problem really, people have already covered that the culture of posting is what sets that tone. Not the moderators or site admins or forum names and visibility. What is done here and in what way makes MSB what it is.

I started off confused when there appeared to be a sizable handful of people who did not think MSB had its share of gleeful personal attacks. I feel like I have seen plenty. Some on Hogpit, some on game advertising threads when people wanted to get their digs in. I accept it as part of reading the site or posting on it. Though I have been the target that was a while ago and is not my focus here. I have watched the same pattern repeat over and over. People share legit critiques sure. They also make deliberately hurtful comments. I have seen people make jokes about who they think should see a shrink because hahah burnnn, and then it's time to wait for the high fives and upvotes. I've read people who I have never interacted with add cracks about my complete lack of self awareness and social skills. I have seen other people who are complete strangers to me experience the same pile on pattern. That is a big part of MSB. People can state that readers need thicker skins, or are whiners, or that they deserved every crack made at their expense because they are the worst. I get that those beliefs are very solid in the heads of the MSB community. It does not mean I think its the worst ever and anyone participating is a huge asshole. It is a forum that can be interesting and sometimes enlightening, but also one where some get deep satisfaction from being shitty to other people. Is it because they are serving the greater good, piling on staff members of games that they got frustrated with, and players that they have determined are a blight on all gaming and deserve every insult tossed their way? I can answer that question for myself and make choices about what I want to read or say here. But I know other people have different thoughts.

I do not think mods should police for tone. MSB will pick the tone it wants. I do think all of us would benefit from some reflection on what we write here and why. Then if someone is deciding whether or not to join a particular topic and in what way, it is more natural to understand the reason. At that point, if chasing that pleasure center burst we all get from gossip and insults is the call they make, they can own it. I was told in one thread somewhere about something that I had a complete lack of self awareness. It is highly possible there was a solid point there and reflecting more on what I say and how I say it will do me good. But I am not the only one who ought give that some attention. People do get nasty here. Not every pile on is a public service. Sometimes people join in for the sheer pleasure of it. The evidence is all over the place. The negative stuff does not float into the void every time. Sometimes the targets don't read the forum and have no clue what is being said. Other times they definitely feel the impact of what it tossed at them.

I have no closing statement, I had no thesis. I use MSB sporadically depending on my mood, my state of mind, etc. I do not consider myself a part of the community, just like Shlappy does not
I just don't have the years of shared experience that the core group of posters here does. I have participated in some interesting discussions that I enjoyed, and also been trashed by groups of people which I did not enjoy. That is pretty much the experience offered here. For some it is pretty ugly and petty and pointless, for some it does not offer enough cathartic gossip and mud slinging. Whether or not it is productive or damaging there won't be consensus on. Quite possibly it depends who you are and what you read and post.

@surreality

It is great that that exists, I hope it takes off.

Agreed that people have different opinions on what bashing is. I know what mine is, but I also know it is not shared by any kind of majority. I feel like it can't be that hard to figure out...we have to offer feedback in other areas of life and generally I feel likr most people don't start with 'Bob you are an idiot, everything you do sucks probably because you are just a worthless, pointless person' That is really crass, implies a major lack of reflection or emotional regulation on the speaker's behalf, and provides no feedback that Bob can use. As we have visited before in this thread, what we often witness here is not an attempt to give feedback but to trash talk those who we feel wronged us or generally dislike for the sheer pleasure of it.

Yet I have also read people discussing how they don't appreciate the negativity and that is why they hold back write some pretty nasty personal stuff themselves. Don't know where the disconnect is for sure, but suspect it is tangled up in the glee of the 'righteous' take down. It doesnt seem mean to us if we think we are helping others by telling them who to hate, who is corrupt, who is useless, and why. Most of the time, there is very little evidence that the effect the ooooh burn would have on its target was considered at all.

@EmmahSue said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

@Pandora

The Hog Pit is a bit ugly, a lot cruel, and often for the fierce joy of that cruelty. There's nothing particularly wrong with that (it's not my favorite gin joint, still I've had my posts and responses o'er time), but it's also not something that aids in the... evolution? Growth? of our community at large. It was set opt-in so that it would be a deliberate, conscious choice to take part. "Do I want to do this?" "Yes, click." As gates go, it's not locked, or even particularly proverbially high. It's just a moment of decision to step through, and meanwhile the folks who don't want to participate are relatively clear of the mud.

That was a basically perfect description down to the details. Often for the fierce joy of cruelty. I know some people really deeply believe that it is a necessary service for exposing truths but I think fierce joy of cruelty hits the mark with way more accuracy. Most of the time I opt out of the Pit. Occasionally someone nudges me with a 'but you HAVE to see this and so I click join again and do because suddenly I am curious. Maybe I should focus and make a real decision about what I do and do not want to read, but I have not yet. I don't fling mud myself because I know that is not who I want to be, but watching the mud fling around...eh. Not really what I want out of my web reading time. Will still probably consume in bits and pieces even if it is empty calories that don't even really taste good, like grocery store cupcakes left in the workroom.

None of my opinions on whether the place as a whole is positive or negative or whatever is meant to be a criticim of the site creators, the mods, etc. That a forum for discussing Mu* games and their design methods exist..that is surely a positive. What that forum becomes as a result of how people use it is its own thing.

@Shlappy said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

I could take it or leave it. There are occasionally useful things, but I'm not really a member of the community at large. I'm one of those people that doesn't like the target painted on their head, so I steer clear of a good many of you if I'm honest. I dread the day I do something someone else doesn't like and they run a hate campaign on here for me with their buddies.

So it has its good points and bad points. I think it's more useful for game designers than anything else. That's something I've been gaining interest in learning more about, so it's still a useful tool. If I find a better forum for that, I probably wouldn't have much use for this. Game ads, maybe?

But that's like - just my opinion, man.

Treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself is a quote I have heard somewhere. Most people don't actually relish the pile on. That does not stop people from getting it going, and keeping it going with what appears to be a deep feeling of glee. We can only hope they reflect on that later if being known for personal attacks is not who they really want to be.

@faraday said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

@surreality said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

@Gingerlily I used to be a mod on the big abortiondebate forum on livejournal. I have seen some shit. <rubs salve on all the scars> So I know precisely what you're saying about it just kinda being how people are on the internets.

Just because it's how people are on 90% of the internet forums out there doesn't mean that's how it should be or how it has to be. It all comes down to what community standards you choose to have and whether you're willing to enforce them.

I think adults should be capable of reining themselves in and providing criticism while still recognizing that the person whose game/system/show/opinion you're bashing is still a person who deserves to be treated with basic respect. It's the difference between saying "I don't like Battlestar games because X, Y Z" instead of "Man, Battlestar games suck. Why would anyone in their right mind want to play that crap?" (I love BSG, for the record.)

It's really not that hard, it just takes effort.

Yes. This is 100 per-cent true, and I was not really considering those things when saying 'forums are forums what can ya do?' Because the truth is they do not HAVE to be that way. The group of people using the forum can set any culture they wish to, if they agree on what that culture is or should be. So totally, MSB could be better. People tossing in nasty insults and personal attacks could be shunned instead of cheered on by a big enough crowd that they continue. The whole pattern of 'I had a shitty experience or interaction but I will get the last word and the last laugh after my MSB post' could be a non issue because the community could decide that is not the kind of thing that interests them. There will always be enough people itchin for dirt or gossip or some good trash talk who jump right on in I think...but you have it called. There does not HAVE to always be that element because people could stop accepting it. We absolutely can always be better

I know for many who were part of the WORA days this seems like a place full of sweetness, but I think to those of us who were not it looks different. As a separate entity with no context, its a site where the trash talking area has the most posts and views.

Maybe someday there will be a Mu* gaming and design discussion forum that has no place for or interest in bashing other people (whether they feel like that bashing is totally legit or not, that is not what I am focusing on here)

Until then this is it. Some people love the place, some loathe it and do not participate, some are kinda lukewarm but still interested in some of the content.

I still think it is neither good nor bad for Mu*ing in general overall. Parts are great for it, others are probably ugly and damaging. That is a super boring conclusion, but it is all I have got.

@surreality

"MSB: Use of the internet as Al Gore intended that time he invented it."

@surreality

Yeah people get pretty offensive here and seem to thoroughly enjoy it. I'm not only referring to trolls either, but to the regular posting crew. When a group of people are pissed at a particular player, or a game as a whole, or a particular staffer...I don't think the claws stay sheathed. It gets nasty plenty often.

For me that doesn't necessarily mean 'MSB is a bad place, its bad for gaming, text gaming would be better without it" It just means "MSB is a forum and it reads just as most forums on anything at all do. Sometimes productive, interesting conversations. Sometimes people being supportive of one another in various ways. Sometimes just plain straight up nasty behavior with deliberate intent to hurt people." So in that sense its just sort of typical. It's a forum. I don't know how many of you have ever read any mommy/parenting forums but the content is basically the same. Sometimes wonderful and community building, sometimes people deliberately trying to make other people cry. (I cannot handle parenting forums AT ALL anymore but still click around MSB occasionally so maybe that tells us something.).

Just for reference, I was never part of WORA. Someone showed me something on it once and it was so cruel and vile that I did not want to even provide my pageclicks, I felt that strongly about how hideous it was. So I mean, I clearly see this as a much better place. I'm not anti MSB, I've had some great, productive conversations here. I just don't know that I'd go so far as to say it is a beneficial public service to this particular geek community. It can be great, it can be really gross and ugly, and that's basically how 90% of forums on the internet work, so it's working out as designed, I'd figure.

@Arkandel said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

There are people who dislike MSB for completely honorable reasons. They want their gaming experience to be about only the fun parts, or they'd rather not peek behind the mirror, or simply think we're full of shit; I have nothing against those folks, and I'd never try to convince them otherwise. To each their own.

And there are people who don't like the fact we might speak less than kindly of their actions here; well, perhaps they shouldn't be acting in a way that might be spoken of that way. That's not on MSB.

Gotta say that here is the point that I definitely don't agree with. There are people who have been treated horribly on MSB. There are people who clearly get some enjoyment out of treating others horribly on MSB. Is that on MSB in that it is the moderator's fault, or everybody's fault who ever contributes to MSB? Nah, but it's still a part of what MSB is. People are regularly nasty to other people for various and sundry reasons, and it is not always or even mostly connected to the concept of righteously exposing wrongdoing that others might be informed. Honest analysis of what happens on the entirety of this forum cannot deny that truth or it is not any kind of honest analysis.

I think the people who really dislike MSB and think it is a net negative will not see this thread so they will never comment @Arkandel. There are many people in that camp who still MU* and/or still talk frequently to other people who MU* but there's not really a way to get their input here, so the thread will likely conclude at least in part that MSB is a good thing.

I'm neutral towards it myself. Sometimes I have enjoyed participating in conversations or just reading them, other times I have thought "I need to stop reading that forum, all it does is make me (negative emotion goes here.)" Thus far I still read it, but only when I am in particular moods, and I choose to avoid some sections sometimes. On a scale of 1-10 if the question was "How beneficial is MSB to the activity of MU* gaming I'd give it a solid 5. I am aware other people's ratings vary deeply in both directions.

I know you and I (the you being Ark again) have discussed at length and in some detail your opinions and my opinions and that was kind of where I ended up then too. I support many of your theories as to why it is or has the potential to be valuable, but am not sold enough to buy stock.

My total apologies if this has been covered elsewhere and my question is redundant. I've been following this thread but wasn't on the computer for a few days so lost the flow of conversation a little bit.

Are we talking here about 'antagonism' meaning there is a PC or several who are the antagonists for a large group? The 'bad guys' in a story or whatever? Or is this also looking at other kinds of conflict? I -love- conflict in my rp, I always have, probably the background of starting on MUDs where there are a lot of factions and thus people constantly working against one another or competing for the same goal. One of the things I tried to do when I was staffing on a MUSH was to create that kind of natural conflict, situations where characters would be working against one another for a variety of reasons but reasons that were in the realm of grey, not 'good guys/most PCs' vs 'bad guys/designated NPCs/maybe some PCs willing to take on that role'. I had no skill at making it happen though, I think it falls into the realm of details/big picture working that I have not built up much experience or talent with.

I love hearing about people's experiences on other games where conflict or competition rp has been satisfying and has sustained itself over time.

#TeamCoin

@Ganymede said in Politics etc.:

@ThatGuyThere said in Politics etc.:

While politics were cutthroat on an IC level, on an OOC level the player base was probably the most welcoming, friendly and outgoing group of folks I have ever run into on a WoD game. They went out of their way to help newbies get involved and feel important, because influences were important I was recruited to help on a plot the first week I was on grid, and even received IC credit for what my char did, as a new player to the game that made me really feel like it mattered that I was around.

That is really important and sometimes seems so much harder than it should be. Finding players who enjoy playing in ways where they challenge one another or compete IC but are friendly and inclusive OOC. Some of what @lordbelh mentioned about having things in place so that this Char against Char rp allows for ways to de-escalate and for multiple means of exploration and also where the system is robust enough Char v Char doesn't become just player OOC pride probably makes all the difference.

That's because a good economy system, which the game had, made it more advantageous to have a lot of friends than to have a lot of enemies. If you wanted to get involved in the politics, you had to be friendly OOC; it was very easy to become a pariah.

At a minimum, you had to be involved politically. The system required it; the game enforced it. And that system generated an awful lot of RP because no one person could run or rule the place. It was literally impossible to do, based on the number of players and how it was set up. If you wanted to get far, you had to have allies; if you wanted allies, you had to get new players into the game.

The trick of it seems to be finding a system that isn't too cumbersome/doesn't feel like a grind, and yet also fosters all of those things people seemed to love so much. Balance etc, but it's not yet clear to me where that balance lies.

Thanks for all these great ideas. Just a philosophical exercise for me at this point, but one that I am enjoying.

@Ganymede said in MU Things I Love:

MU Things I love? The people. I'm constantly amazed.

That post was fantastic. It warmed my heart. Sometimes Soapbox leaves me feeling really shitty and I wonder about whether I should be reading it at all. I want to learn more so I keep at it, but that was beautiful and made me look at this 'community' in the way I've wanted to. Trashing each other is tempting, the dopamine rush of bonding with someone over stuff that is horrible is undeniable. Going out of your way to say wonderful things to people doesn't come with that sweet hit, but it was just lovely. Thanks for doing it.