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    1. Home
    2. ixokai
    3. Posts
    I
    • Profile
    • Following 2
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    • Topics 18
    • Posts 686
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    Posts made by ixokai

    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @kanye-qwest said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      Seriously, all of you on this wrongfun whining and nitpicking and all OC's are the only sane way to comic, blah blah.

      I never said that so i dunno what you're on. Maybe you quoted the wrong person? Maybe you didn't really read my statement?

      But that's part of the issue, too. I have a hard enough time, on the game I am part of, making people accept what I define for the setting. I'm glad your experience has been so breezy but let me tell you: mine has NOT. So, I'm not wrongfunning anyone. I'm saying what I would not do, and why. And now I'm restating what I already said, because that appears to be my fucking lot in life.

      Sorry, that wasn't clear. That part of the response was to others, in general. I should have delineated the first section which was to you and the second section which was a general comment better.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      I
      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @lotherio said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @ganymede said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      My experience: Almost zero. And its been ... I don't even know. At least a year, going on year and a half to two?

      Is your experience limited to your game? Because your game has a very definite time and scope, so I can see why there would be fewer issues regarding timelines or versions.

      I can see how people may believe there to be a massive discussion about timelines on other games. I mean, it seems that there's an awful lot of discussion of this nature for a game like UH, for example, but I'd like to hear it from those players.

      Yeah, I've said before (in this thread) this is my first comic game.

      Others are speaking in general. Marvel1963 is an interesting concept that is basically a Marvel Year One, alternative history. More like a reset. There are no defined FCs in canon as canon is reset for the game in question.

      Okay, so what I'm getting out of this is:

      Some other comic games have tried to basically re-play re-hash canon and it turned out a toxic disaster.

      I can't fathom why anyone would have thought that would be a good idea or why anyone would find it fun, personally.

      Perhaps I heard that before and that's why I never comic'd before.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      I
      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @ganymede said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      My experience: Almost zero. And its been ... I don't even know. At least a year, going on year and a half to two?

      Is your experience limited to your game? Because your game has a very definite time and scope, so I can see why there would be fewer issues regarding timelines or versions.

      I can see how people may believe there to be a massive discussion about timelines on other games. I mean, it seems that there's an awful lot of discussion of this nature for a game like UH, for example, but I'd like to hear it from those players.

      Yeah, I've said before (in this thread) this is my first comic game.

      But I have been mushing as long as almost anyone, and we as a hobby have this sharp tendency to get hung up on shit that happened to us a decade and a half ago.

      My game is not a giant, but its fairly popular, open to the public, and if there were this toxic culture of nitpicking canon and drama-ing over FC's or not, I can't see how I wouldn't have seen the fallout from it. Or at least tension in +ooc which I'm the cop assigned to monitor.

      Reminder: We aren't marvel-only, we allow people from any time period or alt-U. The main difference between UH and us that I see is a) we are set in a slightly historic setting (but contrary to what I've heard lately, do not limit characters to only '60s era characters' or the like), and b) we don't incorporate non comic stuff like Supernatural or Buffy.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @kanye-qwest said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @prototart said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      but I also think people tend to forget how many periods in the books

      See this right here? this right here is the reason you don't run a hero game with FC. I cannot even imagine the sheer amount of time taken up by people correcting/telling/complaining/opining about how things were at some point in the books.

      My experience: Almost zero. And its been ... I don't even know. At least a year, going on year and a half to two?

      There's maybe two players who do it in +ooc, vaguely.

      Seriously, all of you on this wrongfun whining and nitpicking and all OC's are the only sane way to comic, blah blah.

      This is all in your make believe portion of your skull or you are stuck in something that used to happen a million years ago when you last comic gamed.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      I
      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @bored said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      In the words of my recently abandoned UH EFC, I say thee 'meh.'

      If you want to be a star of the show character, you have to be willing to do things for others. If in attempting to do things for others you only end up doing things for yourself and people complain about it? Then you shouldn't have that character. It really isn't hard, and staff can afford to be a little stricter with the big guns if they're a little looser with everyone else. That's why I suggest a fairly loose standard for everyone else paired with the strict standard for the iconics. If a player literally cannot bring themselves to play anyone but, say, Rogue, but also won't run anything that isn't about themselves (gee, we've not seen that happen recently, have we?) then you probably don't actually need that player. Be firm, and they'll probably content themselves finding another high-power bombshell to TS on. If they leave, no loss.

      I don't find this attitude productive, personally.

      It takes a certain mindset to run plot. It takes certain mindset to run plot your character is in and not consume it yourself. These mindsets aren't exclusively what I think a good iconic character should be played as.

      To tie, "plays iconic character" to "able to run good plot" together is something I don't feel comfortable with.

      I agree, if you want a certain type of character that tends to be the center of attention, you need to be willing to encourage and allow others to shine in their moments.

      But I don't agree this means that they need to run plot.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @faraday Yeah if you're reading "Meeting only minimum over time is not sufficient" and interpreting, that as what "the minimum was", we're not successfully agreeing on the fundamental meaning of the words we're using.

      I'm checkin' out of this conversation now 🙂

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      I
      ixokai
    • RE: MSB Popularity Contest

      0.66

      I HATE YOU TOO

      posted in Tastes Less Game'y
      I
      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @thatguythere said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      30 is the real number. Beyond that its not "x/day", its not day-oriented. You could have a log on day 28 and 29, or a log on day 12 and 29. For part 1 of activity ('minimum'), its 30. For part 2 ('sufficient'), its amount of RP over a period, with amount of days between logs not actually mattering.

      But it is not ,you said up thread that if someone only has one log every month for a few months they would be talked to.
      So instead of days being an issue, how many logs per month over an extended period would be enough to never get a chat with staff about activity? That is the real minimum requirement.
      That should also be the stated requirement in my opinion, that is pretty much the entirety of my argument.
      There is no right or wrong answer to how much activity is enough that can vary from staff wishes from game to game I just would like to see the actual number known in advance.

      Alright, man, like. I'm not getting why this isn't clear.

      Minimum is 1. That's the line: minimum. What's more then 1? 2. If you do 2 a month you're no longer doing the minimum.

      We might be annoyed if say, Iron Man is only out twice a month regularly, but for good or ill we've chosen a two-tier activity system and his tier has the policy it has. He'll never get a chat from staff if he shows up twice a month.

      (The other tier is OC's. OC's have the onerous activity requirement of logging on at least once a month)

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      I
      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @faraday said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      I know it can be done; but I do find it pretty out there a suggestion for 94 FC's

      I'm seriously not trying to beat a dead horse but just to be helpful...

      I know you guys have some sort of automated scene code right? Just have the players flag the type of log. Just for example: social/plot-related/event. Participating in an event scene is worth 3 points, plot-related 2, social 1.

      We actually already do that; the scene/posting code lets you specify tags to include, with every scene requiring either a social or a plot tag at least. (Additional tags can be added so the log gets marked for faction or for a specific running plot-arc)

      Sure, it's imperfect. There's some subjectiveness about what people consider "plot related". But it's also 100% automated with no staff intervention beyond some casual oversight of "Hey wait that log looks like it's mis-tagged". And as @Ganymede said, the players can help flag those kind of things.

      Again, I'm not saying you should do this. That's your business. I just don't think it needs to be some kind of crazy burden.

      If @tangent wanted to do that I'd have no problem turning to a point based activity system based on scene type. I don't make policy 🙂 But sure, we could do that.

      The log-per-month policy was designed when the game opened before they had a coder that could do cool stuff (err, no offense, I know you provided the initial code. I mean before they had a coder who had the time to commit to be a full codewiz), back when it was largely being enforced by manually eyeballing from time to time, I believe. The code has automated existing policy, but sure, it could inform new policy based on code's capabilities.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      I
      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @thatguythere said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @thatguythere said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      No meeting the minimum standards is still sufficient because there is a minimum activity level where you would not boot someone (there has to be or you would boot everyone) it is just that the rule does not actually state what the rule is.

      =To clarify on the minimum standard thing, if for example you have someone playing the Dane Whitman version of Black Knight and he gets a scene every 19 days and staff doesn't notice, than he starts going 20 with out a scene and staff notices and talk with him, that clearly establishes the minimum is 19. What the actually written rule states is meaningless because what staff enforces on the game becomes the actual rule.
      The rule might say 30, but in reality it is 25 or 13 or some other number that is just under what would actually draw staff attention.
      I an not picking on any game in specific with this, never been on the one @Ixokai staffs (never played there and have honestly heard nothing bad about it) just using that as an example of the similar rules I have seen on most comics games.

      This would be true if staff and the system only ever looked at the 'current period' and was blind entirely to the past. I admit most games, I believe, do things this way-- or do things entirely subjectively/manually (I heard one game which every quarter looks over log activity manually for each character to make a determination, the idea of doing so making me want to pluck my own eyes out).

      However, in our situation, every night a program queries the wiki and grabs a link to all new logs. It determines who is in each log and writes all this data into a SQLite database. Now we can look at this data in an automated way with more sophistication: we don't need to 'only' look at someone's activity for the 'current period', we can look at their overall history for the last...however long we want to (currently: 3 months) We can see that though the rule is 30, they're only RP'n every 29, and that deserves a warning. Right now its still semi-manual cuz I've been to work-busy to code the analysis tools, but they aren't hard to do.

      Awesome use of tech, but that still means there is a minimum, Ok 29 deserves a warning, what about someone scening every 12? I would guess no which means the real warning level is somewhere between 12 and 29, if yes the real number is somewhere under 12.
      Either way my point is there is still a real minimum number that players are left to guess at. I would very much prefer this real number be listed somewhere rather than the 30 that is.

      30 is the real number. Beyond that its not "x/day", its not day-oriented. You could have a log on day 28 and 29, or a log on day 12 and 29. For part 1 of activity ('minimum'), its 30. For part 2 ('sufficient'), its amount of RP over a period, with amount of days between logs not actually mattering.

      @bored said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      On activity, I think you basically need two standards. You can have a basic one for FCs that's fairly... standard MU whatever, lose the character if you're idle for X amount of time without Y votes/logs, whatever. That works for 90% of characters that exist.

      But I'd also put all of the iconic roster (ie, basically anyone who's in the main cast of a movie or TV show) in another tier. Most games only do this with the absolutely top characters (Superman, Cap, whatever). Those people are expected to keep up public activity etc. It's in the job description and sorry, if you're not willing to be a PRP runner, you don't get to play the current hotness characters.

      With that setup, staff doesn't have to review every log or monitor everyone's RP. But they do keep an eye on what the stars of the game are doing, and push them along.

      I find this a reasonable approach -- but you have to be very careful with it. Its already really hard, for example, to fill a Charles Xavier position, and he's so important for the X-Men. The bigger the burden we put on it, the even harder it will be, I think. There's a delicate balance you have to find between them being the "job" and them playing.

      Also this "PRP Runner" thing is very a concern. If Superman has to run PRP's to play, then there's a very ripe opportunity for him to basically be the center of all the plots. And that's boring. Just by being himself he is apt to solve most problems if he shows up to a plot. Who wants to show up to a plot where Superman saves the day again and again?

      For characters like Cap, or Xavier, who may be iconic but themselves can't usually solve all things, that's not so bad, but for some of your iconics they're heavy hitters in their own right.

      @faraday said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      It can be done.

      I know it can be done; but I do find it pretty out there a suggestion for 94 FC's. The time it'd take to do it would have to come from somewhere, which probably means cut my playing time in half. Which means burn out. But if as @bored suggested it was only for certain iconic/key FC's, that'd be doable.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      I
      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @thatguythere said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      No meeting the minimum standards is still sufficient because there is a minimum activity level where you would not boot someone (there has to be or you would boot everyone) it is just that the rule does not actually state what the rule is.

      =To clarify on the minimum standard thing, if for example you have someone playing the Dane Whitman version of Black Knight and he gets a scene every 19 days and staff doesn't notice, than he starts going 20 with out a scene and staff notices and talk with him, that clearly establishes the minimum is 19. What the actually written rule states is meaningless because what staff enforces on the game becomes the actual rule.
      The rule might say 30, but in reality it is 25 or 13 or some other number that is just under what would actually draw staff attention.
      I an not picking on any game in specific with this, never been on the one @Ixokai staffs (never played there and have honestly heard nothing bad about it) just using that as an example of the similar rules I have seen on most comics games.

      This would be true if staff and the system only ever looked at the 'current period' and was blind entirely to the past. I admit most games, I believe, do things this way-- or do things entirely subjectively/manually (I heard one game which every quarter looks over log activity manually for each character to make a determination, the idea of doing so making me want to pluck my own eyes out).

      However, in our situation, every night a program queries the wiki and grabs a link to all new logs. It determines who is in each log and writes all this data into a SQLite database. Now we can look at this data in an automated way with more sophistication: we don't need to 'only' look at someone's activity for the 'current period', we can look at their overall history for the last...however long we want to (currently: 3 months) We can see that though the rule is 30, they're only RP'n every 29, and that deserves a warning. Right now its still semi-manual cuz I've been to work-busy to code the analysis tools, but they aren't hard to do.

      @tempest said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      You don't have to omfg read every single log word for word to know what is going on on your game. The claim that you would, is just well...daft.

      On the other hand, if posting logs is the thing you're going to use to judge activity...

      Maybe you should be reading them.

      I don't have time to skim 12 logs a day 😛

      Or, idk, write a policy you'll actually take the time to enforce.

      We did. Works well for us. Thanks.

      @faraday said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      I don't see though why you can't just read the log summaries. That takes 5 minutes, and it's pretty easy to tell from a summary: "Oh, it's just Batman having coffee again" versus "Oh, look, Batman foiled a bank robbery, cool."

      Now, I have to somehow tally, note, keep in my head or in some database somewhere, the "activity" of 94 FC's according to some subjective determination of which RP "matters" (+2 Foiled Bank Robbery; -0 Coffee; +1 Team Building Exercise; -1 Romantic entanglement) and which doesn't, and determine from this who is making good use of their FC's and gets to keep them and who isn't.

      Sure, someone could do that, and if that's how they wanted to run their game, I've no problem with it.

      I have neither the time nor inclination, and neither does anyone else on our staff.

      I mean, if you don't want to make a qualitative assessment part of your idle policy, that's your business. I don't care. But the idea that it's somehow impossible for staff to gauge a player's activity through logs doesn't fly with me. I do it. Granted my games are smaller, but I'm also only one staffer. It scales.

      I didn't say impossible, I said I don't have the time to do it. That's me making a value judgement of my time verses the benefit of my time spent doing that verses doing something else for the game.

      I mean I'd actually like to devote at least half my time in the game to actually playing it.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      I
      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @thatguythere said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @ixokai
      How is that less unfair than leaving the rule vague?
      If one scene every 2 weeks or whatever really means the activity we want even if you are still doing one scene in 2 weeks we might still boot you. Why not just say it is staff desecration from the beginning.
      Both ways are open to favoritism but one add the spice of hypocrisy since the actual stated rule isn't what turns out to matter.

      Except the stated rule includes the statement that 'simply meeting the minimum requirements is not sufficient', and there's never a situation where "we might still boot you".

      No one loses their character, ever, without a warning. In the case of a single month, the warning is automated. Every time you log on there's a clear statement of the status of all of your alts (and this status is visible to everyone).

      Even once you hit the violation period, you are only purged if you haven't been on in weeks. If you've been on, as long as you're not booked, we reach out to you and give another, direct warning.

      It isthe stated rule that 'just doing minimum is not sufficient'. That's the stated rule. One a month, but if you repeat just minimum over time, then you get another warning. This has been very rare.

      @thatguythere said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      am arguing for stating up front what your actual standards are.

      We do. The 'minimum over time is not sufficient' is not some arbitrary thing we enforce -- its right in the policy file.

      @faraday said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @ganymede said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      Fairness isn't the issue.

      I think the issue (which could be a miscommunication) is that @ixokai said the rule was "one log every X days" because that was fair and objective but then in the same breath said re: people who do one log every X-1 days to camp the character:

      The policy has two parts:

      1. Minimum: 1 log per month.
      2. Meeting only minimum over time is not sufficient. Like, its fine if it happens one month, everyone has trouble from time to time. But if you've had 1/mo for three months you're not active.

      The first part is fully automated; the second is currently done semi-manually.

      @tempest said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      I'm a little baffled by comments along the lines of "then staff has to pay attention to what is going on on their game!!!!!!!!" That's uh...kind of your job, as staff.

      As usual I find you completely crazy, but: The idea that we have time to actually monitor all the RP that happens on the game is so completely unreasonable to me that I can't even fathom you said it without snickering darkly behind your hand.

      Yesterday, there were twelve scenes that were logged and posted (could have been more that weren't logged). We don't have time to read that much content, man.

      If you find that baffling, well you're still crazy.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      I
      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @thatguythere said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      I agree it can't be applied fairly but any rule with an objective standard will be gamed.
      If it is one scene ever x days, there will always be those who squat on chars having a scene in x-1 days. (Well obviously not for x=1 but you get the point. )
      It just comes down to which you want to hear people bitching about inexact policy or the people following the policy but not the "right way".

      Except we handle that. People who just bare-bones it get caught and poked in the eye. We keep all logs in a database so we can query it and look at peoples history. Right now its semi-manual to start (I'm going to automate it), but its easy to see who is bare-bonesing it and just skating by.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      I
      ixokai
    • RE: Marvel: 1963+

      It's back up.

      posted in Adver-tis-ments
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      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @thenomain said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      I don't know enough about comic books to be able to make a joke with nuance, but it slightly was. I understand Squirrel Girl to be a very low-powered character, and to say that nobody can be better than her at whatever she does just because she's a FC seems nearsighted.

      Yeah, its a dumb policy.

      I mean, I get the reason for it -- its not for an absurd character like Squirrel Girl.

      Its for someone who in canon, is "the best" at something. Like, someone who is the best at controlling fire and makes the hottest fire. Some people think that if an OC can be as-good or even better, then that ruins the story of the FC.

      I find this entire mindset maddening and counterproductive; I mush to create stories with people. Part of that is I want everyone in a scene to shine and have the chance to be cool.

      Why would anyone want to play an OC if they have to lose out to a FC?

      The nuance I was trying to get across was that this level of worship of comic characters would absolutely have me hating any game that mixed FC with OC. I hope that character builds are more thought-out than this, but each time I watch a Comic Book Mu* discussion unfold I can no longer assume it.

      Personally, on our game at least, we don't have these sort of FC vs OC issues. OC's can be great, they get included in scenes, people RP with them. Most of our players have a mix of FC's and OC's.

      I've never played on any other comic game before but from what our OC characters have told me, we're rare that way.

      I get why some people don't like FC's, and I get why some people would prefer an OC only game, but I honestly don't see what the problem would be with mixing FC and OC as long as you have sane policies of not treating the FC's as "special".

      IMHO, its when you try to "protect" the FC's status in the canon universe into your made up universe that you start running into problems.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @thenomain said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @ixokai

      Do you mean there are games where an original character can't be better than Squirrel Girl?

      I don't quite know what you mean, if you're joking or if I miscommunicated.

      There have been games that have rules that state an OC can't beat a FC at what the FC is good at.

      So if there's Johnny Storm verses Fireboy the OC, Johnny's fire control must always win/be superior to Fireboy's fire control, by virtue of the fact that he's a FC, and FC's win in their specialty against OC's. We don't do that.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @lotherio said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      OCs are not bad, but do believe some folks feel they are a catch all with some players aiming them to be better than FCs and a way to showoff, or they are some attempt to be super versatile in an ingenious way so as to be nearly unbeatable somehow.

      I've heard this complaint about OC's before, that people will use them to be "better then FC"'s, and on my vast experience playing/staffing on one comic game in my whole life,... have seen it maybe once.

      This might be an app-standards issue? Being an OC isn't a license to do anything you want and throw together a random grab bag of nonsensical powers without limits or flaws.

      But we also have a rule that "anything a FC can do an OC can do" and that FC's don't have primacy or win-in-their-role privileges.

      We do expect an OC to sort of make sense, in their powerset, though 'sense' can vary by story of the character. (It doesn't have to completely make sense, a pyrokinetic who happens to have one other oddball trait might be fine, where a range of unrelated stuff is not) -- That can't be said to be true for all FC's out there, unfortunately.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @thatguythere said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      "If staff feels a role is not being met the person will be replaced."

      I find as a rule this is completely impossible to fairly apply. For one thing it means that staff has to actively monitor everything going on in the game, and for any game over five players, that's a ton of work to read logs and evaluate if 'the role is not being met'.

      I don't have the time to read everyone's logs and make that kind of evaluation.

      I personally have no issue with having a) minimums and b) a rule that meeting only minimums is insufficient. Policing it is not really that hard if you have good code in place. Its not perfect, and for some roles you may want higher standards -- but then you create this perverse incentive to make the more important rules less likely to be played. (Thus, imho, everyone on the same standard is best)

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      I
      ixokai
    • RE: FCs on Comic MUs

      @faraday said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      @lotherio said in FCs on Comic MUs:

      Not to call her out or drag her in, @Faraday has, just prior to AresMUSH go-live, consolidated a lot of standard global features and add-ons that players have come to expect and enjoy all in one location as a Softcode Core.

      Heh, that's been around for close to ten years. 🙂

      Since @Tempest asked in the train wreck thread about a sandbox setup -
      here you go - Zero to Faraday Softcode. It has FS3 and other stuff built in but you can get rid of them with the +uninstall command. It doesn't have +traits, but that's easy enough to do. Maybe @tangent or @ixokai has that quick and dirty version I threw together for Marvel63 when it first opened.

      I don't have it anymore readily, because we migrated off that platform onto my own awhile ago. (RhostMUSH, all code besides bbs/jobs by me)

      That said, I've taken M1963's database, wiped out all the characters and grid and saved it as a sort of empty starter DB that I can give to someone if they want it.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
      I
      ixokai
    • RE: Not Ending the World

      @saosmash
      Is there a 'things are really awesome' thread? I know there's a MU Things I love, but this doesn't seem to be that.

      It also doesn't seem like normal.

      But it might very well be my normal detection dial is tuned to stupid!

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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      ixokai
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