@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
What? No. What?
I have in no way, shape or form reacted to the incident brought up by @ixokai surrounding the Village Centre 'can I join' page IC.
You said 'well the villagers shunned us'.
It would, however, give H and I something to work with in terms of, 'oh, I guess the villagers here don't like us', and RP is still RP.
This is making IC reason for OOC reason from those players.
@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
I think the culture shock I've described is now going both ways. You MUSHers are looking at me like I'm wearing a kilt.
I play on MUDs, I still play a great early offshoot of Nightmare LP MUD. They are, myself included, trying to point out the differences in culture on a MUSH. I learned this in like 94 when I went from MUD to MUSH.
And, you go with the villagers here don't like us. Not only where they kind enough to say everyone would split because the scene would be too busy for most of the current players [...]
These two statements are totally unrelated. In a MUD community, this would be called bad separation of IC and OOC. My character going, 'the villagers here don't like us' in a MUD would have nothing to do with 'but they were really kind to you OOC!' They were. I'm not arguing that. It's just irrelevant to the IC narrative.
As is assuming you couldn't join the scene for IC reasons alone, when they have no IC reason to not like you. You made the IC narrative on your own, you actually powered for the other players in this case. You made that you were ICly shunned, when they just couldn't manage a large scene.
Edit:
But Bob's IC absence remains an IC fact
You ignored the whole, what if he went AFK for a RL reason, why is it forced on him to explain his absence?
@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
Any rejection H and I experience (e.g., C may ICly say, 'How dare you intrude! Go away!') would not be taken as any kind of affront because IC is IC. It would, however, give H and I something to work with in terms of, 'oh, I guess the villagers here don't like us', and RP is still RP.
Pages do not come into it.
'Tell' came into it with the example of Bob the ooc friend and him explaining it was dinner. Page is the same thing.
Also, this is a peeve of mine with any RPI RPE MUD. Because I was on-line, I'm accountable for any 'shunning' or ignoring by your character, to your character, from your character. I could of had a RL emergency, I could of came on to check up with a friend in some other part of the country. You said its not an affront, but in the first example, you can approach Bob like he ignored you. A page gets the hand wave part all done too. He was busy, or AFK and doesn't answer.
The clothes and naked came up, on a mush, its understood characters have history and know more about their world than the player knows. They would wear clothes, instead the RP focused MUDs force a player to make up a reason on the spot. MUDs don't suffer from players, they have the leisure to enforce this and let folks leave and ditch the hobby. MUSHes do not have this luxury, they need some civility to attract and retain new players.
And, you go with the villagers here don't like us. Not only where they kind enough to say everyone would split because the scene would be too busy for most of the current players, but now they have to deal with it being an IC shunning to you that they just couldn't work with the scene somehow (too big). Its taking responsibility away from personal courtesy and resolution via page. If this got back to them IC, that you are saying X, Y, and Z don't like you because they couldn't accommodate a scene, they'd ignore outright. Bad, cause as Faraday pointed out, the rain check to play with new players is something most players are honestly good for, instead their dealing with implications that they ICly shun people when it had nothing to do with IC what so ever.
@ixokai said in Better Places Code:
@Lotherio said in Better Places Code:
A few places in the 90s were running mutter combined with places, so everyone in the room got snippets from conversations that way. How come that wasn't continued.
I hated that too, because the code would use randomness to determine what's overhead, and while it was sometimes funny, it simply had no basis in reality. Its as likely to out something whispered as yelled.
To me it came out like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt4Dfa4fOEY
I liked it because honestly if you're half listening to another conversation, you don't control what you hear, but you pick up on certain words your ears are familiar with. The frustrating part is if you wanted something good to be overheard like 'positive ..... she's pregnant ... unwanted ...' but you get something stupid like 'she is .... again ... not that ...'
It was more an issue when someone at a place wanted to get attention from someone outside the place ... then the could just emit to the room instead of trying mutter or muttered places.
A few places in the 90s were running mutter combined with places, so everyone in the room got snippets from conversations that way. How come that wasn't continued.
I enjoy places code because its easer to have 5-10 people in a location without it a mess of mismatched conversations of non-relevance.
@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
Circular logic. Polite to ask first is wrong, smart to ask first is right.
It's not circular. @lordbelh (and @Groth, a page or so up) has explained how a person entering a scene might benefit from asking first and thus learn pertinent information that would affect how they ought to approach. So there is a practical reason to do so other than it being a sort of curtsey.
Others in this thread are making it clear that asking is some kind of weird social dance to determine whether or not the other person is an arsehole.
Circular because its smart to ask first to avoid craziness, but politeness has nothing to do with it? If its smart to ask first to, how is it not polite?
Also, I'm not arguing anyone should be entitled, that was like 15 responses ago. It seems everyone is, in fact, agreeing those sorts are assholes. But the argument after entitlement, and my stance, is its still polite to ask because there are reasons other than eliteness and pettiness for why folks may not be able to handle just one more player in a scene. I have said nothing about entitlement to own a room or to disclude anyone from RP. I have said if they’re hogging up public you can ask them for the room or remind them to take closed scenes private. Manners still help.
Thanks for ignoring my other comments.
Speaking for myself, I don't really like making anyone feel like they need to ask for my permission to join in and have fun. I feel awkward when people needlessly apologise to me for intruding on a scene. I think a more welcoming environment would be one where public places are considered genuinely public
My point has been people want to meet new people in public but cannot handle big scenes. Its just as rude to force them to bow out of a scene, because they are polite and will say nothing. It takes two seconds to write five words in page or OOC to get over the hurdles. Assholes assume entitlement to public places. Just like assuming joining a big scene makes everyone feel comfortable. You feel awkward with all the OOC, others feel awkward without it. I think some of us are saying we all need to be adult and consider everyone’s awkward feelings in the shared environment.
Here is a good article on how to get along with each other: http://wadewilson.livejournal.com/11285.html (old school, its live journal, Wade Wilson’s Internet Drama and You). TL;DR – to avoid coming off like an ass, try communicating with other players.
Heh, funny, the first ooc disagreement on Realms. I went with dark background because lighter (especially white) gives me a headache too. Someone offered to change it, for this reason I guess. Folks were happy on pub, but pages rolled in wanting the old one back. I felt bad for the change for those like me, but the change was pretty much liked by those who prefer white backgrounds.
If there is a good neutral one that doesn't cause a headache on its own, let me know, please.
@Arkandel said in [Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes
I don't think a quick page is too big a barrier to entry. It literally takes under a minute and gets rid of the entire issue right there - as opposed to people joining a scene that's already pretty busy/spammy and having to see folks leaving it for that reason. It's easy then to think they are jerks and/or take it personally because... why wouldn't you? After all you posed in and suddenly half the characters are leaving? Elitists!
@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
ETA: We were still existing in the same game. A shared environment in which what I do affects what you do. Even if that's just to walk away. And this is somewhat of a peeve of mine: But I do feel like there are way too many players who rather than share would own this environment, making every other character and player but a bit piece in their grand story, to be straight up ignored and set aside if they feel like it. And I think ownership of public spaces is part of it.
Both of these go together, different sides of the same coin. Yes, a group that has claimed John's Juke Joint as their hangout and constantly say the scene is closed are asshats and should be sandboxing in private. I agree, there is a lot of cliquish mentality, not wholly on purpose either. Likewise, ignoring a 5th wheel is just the same. I notice I try to acknowledge at least the pose if someone comes into public and at times at the cost of ignoring an ongoing IC relationship. Yes, I prefer to be paged first, but if I go public, I don't discourage random joins, I still think its polite to ask first and saves lots of hassle all around..
Both point back to why more OOC helps in MUSH'ing.
@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
Exactly why folks are saying it helps to ask first?
No, people are saying its polite to ask first, thus implying entitlement and control over a grid space, and the right to tell you no. That it might be smart to ask first isn't something I'd argue against. I sometimes do, I often don't, but again I'm willing to live with the consequences, which might be Vampire X and Vampire Y looking at me, looking at each other, then leaving for a more private location.
3 posts and that was that scene. Yet.. it was still a form of interaction.
Circular logic. Polite to ask first is wrong, smart to ask first is right.
You mentioned you leave scenes if they get too big. Most places I've staffed at, I've been approached by the friends of people like that and asked to do so something about the problem of big scenes, such as making it policy to ask to join a scene first, because they're sad their friend is always leaving public scenes. I'll never make that a policy at any place I'm running. But, its still polite to ask first, and if the room is closed without any good reason, I do believe they should be asked to go private (reminded to at least).
@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
Wouldn't it save this person 20 minutes of time of going to a scene, waiting for a couple poses to see what's going on, pose to see if anyone bites and not getting any reaction if they would of just paged the group in public to see if there was room for another.
Sure. And if you can't tolerate being ignored IC by the people whose scene you entered without asking if the scene lent itself to easy inclusion, you really shouldn't have joined it without asking in the first place.
Exactly why folks are saying it helps to ask first?
And waiting for a round of posts/the scene set isn't so much about politeness (though it is that as well) as it is a question of good roleplay. You cannot expect to be able to maintain scene integrity if you don't know what the fuck is going on before you enter it.
No argument about waiting for a round of poses, I'm a fan of pose order over 3pr and someone jumping into a room before scene set and the others to pose their round is a pet peeve.
@Kanye-Qwest said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
You had fun and you now no longer have fun with Mr 5th in the room? Do something about it. Take your fun out of the cafe and into a cab, and drive somewhere else IC. Make something out of it instead of complaining, or seething internally with resentment, or bitching about it in pages.
+1 +1 +1
How about - roleplay? It's very easy to dismiss and then ignore people being disruptive for the hell of it - you know, the guy who runs in and collapses in a bloody heap at a table of strangers just trying to have coffee. And if you do it IC, then you are refusing to let it disrupt your scene and that is zen and good.
Dealing with snowflakes is a different discussion than courtesy of asking to join a scene.
And if it's someone just posing in to see who bites and feels like interacting, do or don't, but again, it doesn't have to disrupt anything or be taken OOC.
Wouldn't it save this person 20 minutes of time of going to a scene, waiting for a couple poses to see what's going on, pose to see if anyone bites and not getting any reaction if they would of just paged the group in public to see if there was room for another. They could page back, we're sort of in a private conversation, or there is room for another, or one or two could say the third is leaving soon, give them 10 minutes and they'll be open for anything. With limited time, even if I felt I can manage a big scene, I'd rather ask and make sure I'll get a bite for my RP instead of go and just be ignored.
Jumping into a room is as much an assumption as the room ownership. A few pages could of avoided all that.
Point to the ongoing topic of why OOCly people make sure things are square OOCly, this difference of opinion right here - assumptions on either side, leads to another head on the drama hydra (eviscerating spiral).
@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@Ominous said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
A single room can have multiple scenes in it, and it happens all the time. They are interlinked by proximity, but nobody is throwing you out of a room by saying they're not willing to include you in their interactions. There's no reason to be a jerk because you feel slighted. There's certainly no reason to feel slighted.
I am referring to people who have told me before "No, you can't be in here at all," when they are RPing in a public room. It's incredibly rare, but it has happened.
Oh, then yes. I don't read "ask before joining a scene" to be the same as "the room belongs to those in it", but I'd agree that those people who want ownership of a room should be smacked. Anyone who enters an existing scene and ignores the situation also need smacked. While there's no call for telling someone to scram from a room, I'd say that first come first scene-set too.
I think we're agreeing.
I think bubbling has been touched on enough (the right to the scene set), and the ooc watching as creepy has been mentioned. There is another smaller reason for why a room may be closed off and this may be culture clash.
Most L&L games I've been on since the 90s have been utilitarian in grid structure. Enough to offer variety in scenes but not enough to make the grid 'cluttered'. You get one 'inn' one 'castle court' and a few other public areas. Where as, even in the 90s, WoD emulated a city grid, with different sections. You get choice of restaurants, choice of venues, and its modern, you get more variety in the numerous types of venues thrown onto a grid. In L&L in the 90s, there weren't many TP rooms or private rooms then, it was one lounge and the grid (and if you had two 'bars', one was high class, one was the dive).
So folks did feel a sense of ownership to a room, if they needed the only 'alley' on the grid for their scene. The mentality needs to shift, I agree , to using TP rooms or sandboxing the location from somewhere more private if it really goes to bubbling or there really is a legit reason for no more players.
The scene could of have divulged to some sort of conflict and it really is closed off, because they don't need another individual coming into the scene to 'solve' the problem that the other four people already in the scene have been embroiled in for two hours. There are other reasons the group playing at the location is unapproachable, from filling a table (miss places code on places that don't use it) and being secretive, to off in the back office and the place doesn't come with one.
Argumentatively, they can take it to a TP room as its gone private, and probably should. Just there may be a reason its closed despite being public. Even some staff still hold out with using the grid for play, and saving TP for places just not on the grid at all. The scene probably did start public, and they want to encourage use of the grid.
And as others have mentioned, some folks can only manage 3-4 in a scene. Another person shows up and one has to leave due to size. This is similarly asinine; forcing someone continually out of public RP because you want to join a group. There is a secondary issue with this as on a lot of places with big groups, there is a habit for folks to come to big rooms just to get votes, another issue all together (but something on the cultural differences of MUD vs MUSH - joining big scenes for some bonus/xp/etc).
Its just polite to ask, and if their reason is they just don't want you in the scene, they're asses. But the may have a legitimate reason. One or two players can only manage 3-4 players. Who knows they may be leaving soon anyway and they'll ask you to wait or let you know this. Or it may be bubbled. Hell, if you really need that one public room for whatever you have in mind when they say this, you can ask them to take it to private if there is really no more room. If they were private and didn't move, they'd be the asses in that case..
This turns the issue around a little. Do you really need that room, or just want to join a big scene - which is another discussion aside from courtesy in asking to join a public room.
@ThatGuyThere said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
This is something I'd agree with, but it also runs directly counter to the idea you have to ask before joining a scene (asking means you can be denied, which means people can totally have private scenes anywhere they like.)
To me the asking to join is not about getting permission, but about acknowledging there is a scene in process and being polite. I would consider anyone who said out right no to the question to join more then a bit of a dick. that still said i will tend to minimized interaction with those that don't ask. It is one of those polite non questions that helps social situations function. Like the How are you doing? to a stranger in RL you aren't seeking a real answer just giving them polite acknowledgement.
I agree with it as social politeness
However, I also I understand some folks like to go out to meet new potential RP partners by going to public places in the grid, and due to any number of factors (RL, Work heaven forbid, kids, dyslexia** (me)), anything that gets 'large' (over 5 personally) is unmanageable. They may say no, but I don't think it makes them a dick to want to have the potential to meet new people rather than forcing folks that can only do small scenes into private or the TP rooms.
This can correct itself as has been pointed out in other threads. But on smaller places with only 1 scene going, it can force the person who can't handle big scenes out of RP all together.
** Colors help, highlighting my name on all the input I receive, but people often times address another char by some other reference too (he looks to the other boy, when the one guy talks about cars he agrees, the dark haired middle aged man with glasses gets a nod).
@Groth said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
.... it was after all the 30th of april, the national holiday of getting drunk.
I'd play on that game.
@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
This is not OK for me to metapose:
@ixokai is one cocky motherfucker. Kestrel just stares at him with a baffled expression when he steps on up to that wall with the clearly stated intention of climbing it. There is no way he can climb that wall — look how short his stubby legs are.
I can't speak for @ixokai, but this sort of meta is acceptable. What he is referring to would be:
Okay: @Kestrel looks at @ixokai , that cocky mother fucker, he steps up to try and punch him in the jaw.
Not Okay: @Kestrel looks at @ixokai , that cocky mother fucker, he steps up to try and punch him in the jaw, landing one straight on his face and dropping him like a sack of potatoes..
This Not Okay is not okay, but not because its a metapose. That's a powerpose. Metapose inserts "meta" commentary, stuff that can not be inferred from words, body language, etc; its meta. Powerpose takes the power away from the character's player to decide what their character is doing.
I'm in agreement on definition, I'm okay with most meta and simply assume if they put it in, there is some way I can infer what was said. There was some distinction made earlier.
Take @faraday's silly dog pose. Maybe her eyes were red, maybe something in her voice. I might return with an 'Are you okay?' I wouldn't pose meta saying how he figured it out, cause that could cross into power (he had heard about her dog from a friend, knew how close they were).
My only problem with meta is they miss out on a ton of RP opportunity, if they tell me why they're crying, or why they think I'm a dick, in the meta, I'm less inclined to do ask what's wrong or see what is the matter. And like @Mietze, some folks will be less inclined to play with them.
@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
This is not OK for me to metapose:
@ixokai is one cocky motherfucker. Kestrel just stares at him with a baffled expression when he steps on up to that wall with the clearly stated intention of climbing it. There is no way he can climb that wall — look how short his stubby legs are.
I can't speak for @ixokai, but this sort of meta is acceptable. What he is referring to would be:
Okay: @Kestrel looks at @ixokai , that cocky mother fucker, he steps up to try and punch him in the jaw.
Not Okay: @Kestrel looks at @ixokai , that cocky mother fucker, he steps up to try and punch him in the jaw, landing one straight on his face and dropping him like a sack of potatoes..
@acceleration said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
There are plenty of perma-death MUDs. RPIs are all perma-death and several RP-centric MUDs are also perma-death. Non-perma-death MUDs are typically considered RP-light with combat emphasis (like the IRE series and New Worlds) and probably not where OP is coming from given they haven't really mentioned the death thing at all.
I'll give you this, and sorry, I only saw MUD not semantics; like MUSH on the other side, but I'm sure folks are speaking on behalf of Muck and MOO as well. Though how many RPI Muds have approval processes that take 24+ hours? And how many require more than 4 lines of BG? How many strongly encourage more hours of char development by throwing up a wiki page? Or require some explanation of skill choices?
They are out there, I have seen them, but not the vast majority. I think what I'm looking at more is character vestment. There are plenty of MUSHes with players that are not averse to conflict, but on MUSHes folks feel more vested in the character due to time spent learning theme to make the char, making the char, waiting for approval, making changes to fit the particular them. Most places may say 24-48 hours on approval, but between development and approval, making on char on a MUSH is more intensive most of the time.
I forget where it was, but I was challenged once to try an RPI MUD to compare it to a MUSH. THey hadeasy CGen for players new to MUDs where they went to friendly lands, and a challenge CGen where everyone started a slave. I choose the slave, went through the 'heh you're naked' RP, did enough RP to up my price on those bidding to buy me, and developed a char from scratch that eventually got his freedom. Lots of RP but lots of grinding for things like food and such, sometimes on behalf of my master, especially at the beginning. The CGen was still by far easier and I was less vested in the char if someone came along, got mad at him for slighting them and whacked him there on the spot. I could of jumped in and whipped up another char fairly quickly.
There is an elephant in the room, it might not be white or big, but there is another fundamental difference between MUD and MUSH that should be addressed. In a MUSH death is nearly always permanent (except maybe superhero genre), there is no res at the temple, or pray to the gods, or take an XP cut. I know some MUDs do go permadeath, but most I've been on have some form of resurrection. As a MUSH lacks this, yes, some people are more concerned about death. Its why there is more cultural differences over meta and control, or being polite and speaking OOC a little to befriend.
Edit: On a MUD if someone is a jerk and I don't like their RP, I go play with others, or just go back to regular grinding. On MUSH, nothing happens without collaboration and cooperation of the other players.
The key is, once there is a little OOC trust, more players open up to things like allowing meta (ooc: can my guy punch you, ooc: sure, I trust you, I'll take the hit ...). If there is even more trust, and some story going, more people are even willing to accept IC death, especially for a good story.
@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
@faraday said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
- Ask before posing logs containing sensitive/private IC information.
What constitutes sensitive/private IC information on a MUSH other than TS? I could be misreading between the lines, but based on various communications and the one instance where I asked someone, 'Can I post this?' I felt like I was met with this weird implication that one should always have nothing to hide, and that if you aren't entirely open about your character's motives/secrets, you're being kinda sketchy.
This sounds like something specific to the culture of what ever MUSH you were playing on when this happened. But it is part of the culture, as mentioned above, places put in policy now if they're open or closed, the closed places have adopted from WoD and sometimes call it 'OOC Masque'. It comes into play more when mingling spheres and from the PvP culture of its okay for say, a vampire, to kill a werewolf on site in certain locations on the grid. The secrecy that is, the openness, I've always been around that. Usually if folks don't want to give something away they'll kindly say 'you'll have to see when it comes out', meaning wait for it to come out in RP, or read it in the logs.
@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:
Personally I really dislike too much OOC communication, especially when it (and it often does) lends itself towards OOC manipulation of events and layering pressures and expectations of what should happen, for fishing for ways to avoid even slightly unfavorable consequences. But a lot of players have a vastly different opinion of me on it, believing OOC communication to be the key to happy funtimes. My solution has just been to do it my way, deal with the occasional (and there's never been much of it) fallout with a shrug and a smile. (ETA: Or a cyber screaming match. WHATEVER WORKS.)
So far this is probably the biggest source of MUSH-related culture-shock for me, I think. I had my character react a certain way to something they found off-putting, for very IC reasons (though I found it great) — and received an OOC apology for the off-putting behaviour, with a clarification that it wasn't intended to be off-putting. Is this normal? Do many MUSHers have an aversion to conflict-based RP, and/or take the stance that character behaviours should be altered to cater to harmony with other characters? I mean beyond the basic, 'we need an excuse to stay in a scene together'.
Yes, some do have an aversion to conflict. If you say OOC its good and you're not upset about the behavior, things should be okay. That was just a step to avoid some OOC drama. The char behavior shouldn't be altered, but it does lead back to needing an excuse to scene together. If all characters can't get along ever, no one plays together.
Just out of boredom and for slightly more definition .... http://mortalsouls.wikidot.com/
I may throw something in every now and again, but full development, I'd probably wear myself out. If anyone is interested in contributing their two cents ... I"d be willing to do it similar to the way we did old Redemption.