Sheltering Sky is really, really bad, at least as far as the Changeling sphere goes. Really really bad. The Changeling wiz doesn't get unseelie vs seelie at all, and has really weird ideas (and by weird, I mean he needs to read the fucking books) about how everything works. Dude does not get it even a little bit. I'm sure he'll be happy to not have to deal with our huge group app, at least (not that he seemed like it ever occurred to him that a large group app might need particular things addressed to keep it from overrunning your sphere). Duck is an idiot, he does not understand the game, and my pet rock has more personality and brains.
Posts made by Sunny
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RE: Current Games
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RE: RL peeves! >< @$!#
@Olsson said:
On the subject of literature, I currently have the pleasure of reading The Prince by Machiavelli for my History course.
Joys.
I read it for pleasure. On purpose. I was really young and the bragging rights were important. It meant I was smarter than everyone else. I'm so sorry you have to read it for a class.
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RE: From The Ashes: Detroit by Night
To sort of add onto what @Ganymede said, I haven't just witnessed the utter destruction of games, I've actually been part of the problem on several occasions. I have done so much stupid stuff that I've gotten my 5000 mistakes out of the way.
And to clarify as well, I run an OTT Amber game. The amount of work that I require of my players for their characters is astronomical. It's ridiculous. It is so bad that not everyone is done with it and I started the game in September. But one, folks know me, and two, they know I'm not going to kill their character without them either disappearing on me (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE cough @Glitch @Cobaltasaurus cough). Neither of these facts apply in your case. That's the sad fact of the matter.
That said, I do hope nobody is not playing on this game because I objected and have questions, or don't like how I'm being addressed. One of my favorite internet people is playing there and has given @The_Supremes a very positive review. Don't take what I've objected to as a blemish on the place, please.
If I were asked I probably wouldn't recommend this game, but I wouldn't recommend against it, either. In this day and age that's probably a resoundingly good review.
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RE: From The Ashes: Detroit by Night
When I originally objected, the narrative was a requirement still.
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RE: From The Ashes: Detroit by Night
I absolutely do not criticize just to be a bitch . I was incredibly frustrated because I and some friends were actively looking for a place to play Changeling, checked out your game, got excited about the setting...and then ran smack into the brick wall of 'that is too much time to invest on a game that seems to put more emphasis on it being a dangerous, character killing environment'. Yes, bad things happen, it's the WoD. Nobody is going to contest that, but when something goes out of the way to say that when combined with a difficult (and you can say it isn't all you want, but coming up with a couple of pages in background and answering some potentially difficult questions does not take 30 minutes for us narrativists) app process is a dealbreaker.
We can all deal with stupid House Rules, every game's got them. My game's going to have them. They're secondary. Still, let me tell you, making birthrights 'real' is what I would consider a stupid House Rule. It's not a dealbreaker, but I will never not grit my teeth and roll my eyes. It's okay; it's not my game, they're clearly stated, and I can easily tell whether I can live with them or not.
I don't know you.
Nobody around here knows you. It does not matter if you have an article on your wiki that says that you are experienced at balancing risk and reward and people don't have to worry. It is absolute fact that all we have to go on is what is written. If you are repeatedly being misunderstood across a wide spectrum of people, the problem isn't them. Looking at your app process in the context of I do not know this staffer, I have no reason to believe that I am not wasting my time.
To maybe bring the point home a bit, I'm working on a game right now. Our plan is to not require backgrounds or approval at all; character creation includes broad sweeping character-story choices (born on the streets, nobility, etc) much like, say, GW2 has (but with more options). People will stat themselves, and they will go play. They will have a flag set on them, and at some point someone will come along, review their character, and stamp it with a final approval or go 'hey, yo, let's talk, your being a hobo and your etiquette being over 9000 don't make sense' and work it out.
This is still going to be too much work for some people. These people are not bad players, they are not people you would rather not have on the game. These are people with busy lives, jobs, children, and a couple of hours a week to play. They aren't obsessive about it any more. They partake in the hobby in a healthy fashion. Making policies that favor the crazy people like me over the sane people like @mietze or @Ganymede is insane.
I would not at all advocate going as open as this for an oWoD game. It would be horrible and I would end up lighting people on fire and then stabbing them in the face. Virtually speaking, of course. That doesn't really work for an oWoD game. But where my game is sitting at one extreme, the app process on your game as described and quoted here by you is at the other.
Given that you folks on the game seem pretty up on GNS theory (it's actually outdated now and has been replaced by an interesting model, for all that the creator is a dickwad), the narrativists in general are going to see that app process in a vastly different fashion than you do.
Last but not least, take your fallacy talk and shove it. Again, you're incorrect. Yes, it's a newbie move. No, you trotting out your resume is not related and on-topic. There are plenty of people out there that have been doing this longer than you that still make horrible, stupid choices because they don't actually understand the implications of what they're doing. Worse, they are often entrenched in their ways. In some regard 'I have so much experience' beyond a certain point is actually a negative, because that means you've had that much longer to not only learn bad habits, but to have engrained them so deeply into your mind that there is no way to ever change them.
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RE: General MUSH Startup Advice
Code wise, I personally have found that taking apart someone else's code and reading all the related actual platform help files has always been far easier for me; you get to see it in action, and if you're a hands-on learner, that's the way to go. Generally you can't throw a rock around here without hitting code that's open for use, so that shouldn't be a problem for you.
As far as the rest of it -- ask your questions here, or message me with the sorts of things you want to know. I cannot help with the management of the site or getting that up and running, but @Glitch has a great tutorial up here.
As @Admiral said, do not do this alone. Not only do you need someone else to help with the extensive amounts of work, but you absolutely need a sounding board -- preferably two, so you can get two additional perspectives in addition to how you feel about something. Mind, I do not at all advocate approaching it in a 'we should compromise' fashion. Absolutely not. Make your decisions, but let them be made with input from others and perspectives you don't have.
There are a lot of foundational decisions that need to be made, and I highly recommend it be kept in mind for every single decision that you'll get the behavior that you reward. If you want a particular behavior from your playerbase, figure out a way to reward it.
Learn to be very clear. The job of staff is to provide the framework and tools for players to have fun within. The job of policy files is to lay out what OOC rules people have to follow, rather than just leaving it to the social contract. The job of your news files (wiki articles, whatever) in general is to lay out specifically what game you are playing, how you're playing it, and what people should be expecting playing with you. It is the best (and really, only realistic) way to communicate your vision, to make certain that everyone involved can see it.
Most games utterly fail at this, which is why there's so many problems. Nobody ever outright states: This is a game in which we will be focusing on the interpersonal drama between characters; we aren't bothering with realism, and we play fast and loose with canon. They ought to, though -- then the game is exactly what it says on the tin, and people can make educated decisions as to whether or not your place is right for them. This is an area that always involves TONS of miscommunication. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to make your vision so clear that everybody knows what they're getting in to.
The best resources out there are the people on this board, really. I don't know that there are many help guides out there. Amberyl's Mush Manual is actually really a helpful read. A good chunk of it is outdated and unrelated, but there is enough information there that I do recommend reading it:
http://www.groundline.net/eu-mush/mushman/
I found that link just with a search, but it does look like everything is there.
Take your time, take it slow. Don't get people hyped up too early and let them pressure you into moving forward when you're not ready.
Once you open the game, even for soft RP, kiss any thought of further game development goodbye. You will be handling day-to-day stuff so much that it will be a nightmare to continue working on any of the foundations of the game. If you then take too long to make those foundation decisions and change something that people have gotten used to, you risk alienating your playerbase in a major way. Get all the important-to-you stuff done before you open the doors to anybody but your chosen few.
http://fort.chrysalis.me/wiki/Fate's_Tithe
This is the framework of how I personally build a game. I'm no longer doing this Pern game (at least right now), but you can see how I do it. Wiki stuff means I have been able to move away from doing it with a combination of bbposts, jobs, and notepad -- it's way helpful. There are a lot of decisions that have to be made (though a lot of those on that link are specific issues that the Pern genre has, I promise most games don't have to explicitly state that PCs can't get pregnant without the consent of all involved parties OOC). What I do is make a list of what I think needs to be done. I go through and make the big sweeping decisions, write them down. Then I discuss what I feel needs to be discussed, make the rest of the decisions, make little notes. Create links with the specific items, drop more in-depth notes and discussions there, things to consider/read, places to look, whatever. Then you just start writing the files to fill in the holes and take it from framework-sketch to actual news files/wiki articles.
Last tip: Bad staff is worse than no staff. Always. It's tempting to say 'oh, they're really active, that outweighs (this negative quality)'. It does not. Ever. Down the road you will have WAY more work to do than you will have slowly addressing all the things yourself. Bad staff poison the well, and there's very rarely any coming back from that no matter how awesome you personally are.
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RE: RL peeves! >< @$!#
My peeve is working for the fucking government and having to deal with the stupidly unethical behavior of other people without being able to do anything about it (unless I want to lose my job). And then venting to my mother, and being 'reminded' at length that that's just how government is and if I can't cope with corruption, I probably shouldn't be in public service.
I guess my real peeve is that she's right. It's seriously fucked up.
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RE: Reflections of Amber (Amber MINI-MUSH)
So! We're down currently, wiki and game. No ETA right now on restoration, not entirely sure what's going on. I will update people as I find info out; this is one of two places folks will check that I know of.
Hangout site for this and the other OTT games going on / somewhere to check in is on the Vic site at smokemux.com port 2860 if folks don't have that address.
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RE: From The Ashes: Detroit by Night
@The_Supremes said:
To my mind, though, the 1990s style app process was 'write a novella' rather than 'answer 10-15 questions about your character and show me a sheet.'
Sure, but you're not asking for just a sheet and some questions. This is misleading, as anyone who spent ten minutes (that is being enormously generous) looking at the application process could see.
I mean, it's WoD, of course a character /might/ die. If I understand you correctly, you're basically asking about the risk vs investment balance. The danger a character faces is a function of their actions. If you want to play a character that lays low, doesn't make waves, and withdraws from threats rather than confronting them your character can be very, very safe. If that's your style of character, though, I would suggest that they probably wouldn't go near Detroit in the first place, in our setting.
This is the response to 'it looks like investment vs risk is not balanced'. OK, then. These statements make a whole lot of assumptions that don't actually follow the questions I asked and the statements that were made, and for you to get a condescending, insulting tone with me is ridiculous. Your ideas can go fuck themselves.
That said, I've been running tabletop games for 20+ years and this isn't my first time to the MU* staffing rodeo, either. In my career as GM/DM/ST I've presided over five character deaths. I think I know a thing or two about balancing setting with story.
If you have to throw out how long you've been doing something to prove your point, you don't actually have any business talking. Guess what? I've been doing it longer than you, your point is therefore invalid. These ideas are wrong. You do not know anything about balancing setting and story, and I've been doing this longer than you have, so clearly I know more than you do.
I'm also curious what part of the app process you object to, in particular, so that I can review. Feedback is always a welcome thing.
The combination of the 1-5 page background PLUS the questions. One or the other, and if you decide on the questions, bring them down to something that's not going to take a damn essay to reply to. This amount of work is great for an OTT or something with a small group of people, but an actual mush, not so much.
I'm being critical because there are things about the game that really look interesting and I'd like to play -- the setting / premise is GREAT. But between the ridiculous House Rules and the condescending attitude in response to valid questions pretty much squashed that. So I do appreciate, at least, being given enough of an impression to ensure that I'm not going to waste my time.
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RE: From The Ashes: Detroit by Night
Looking at the application information/process on the wiki, I feel like I'm looking at a mush from the 90s (and not in a good way, these practices died for a reason). And yet, still mulling it over.
I do have a question, though -- the application process looks really rough, but there's the impression that things are quite dangerous and characters might die. An extensive application process coupled with a dangerous IC environment isn't a recipe for success.
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RE: Third Sphere Question.
Nope! But mortal plus characters really ought to have more of a plus to them. The lack of a sink has nothing to do with 'worth playing', it has to do with where the XP can go, what options people have to spend it on. It's more of a problem from a design standpoint than it is from an experience standpoint.
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RE: Third Sphere Question.
As a player of Immortals, if it's a choice between Blood Bathers/Eternals and Psychic/Thaum stuff...go with the Psychic/Thaum stuff. The powers those races have aren't powerful enough to qualify them as a plus, even a little bit. There are no powers for them to purchase, so no XP sinks. It's a bad idea.
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RE: Poll: Did you pay for most of your nWoD books?
I tend to download, and then if I use it at all regularly, I buy it. It's a pain in the rear end to read stuff in-depth (for me) in pdf form.
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RE: Ignore
@silentsophia said:
But I thought you liked me.
(Just kidding, it would probably come in handy.)
I do, I wouldn't ignore you for all that sometimes I want to eat your face.
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RE: New Prospect MUSH
@hedgehog said:
Was it one of the current staffers that did this, Sunny, or was it one of the two originals? I'm vaguely playing there, and think I even met your PC there when I first started (I've only been there six months or so). You were Lark, weren't you?
One of the two originals. I have had Lark there from very early on in the game; I walked away for a good long while after the incident in question (there were and are other issues with the game, but I am only going to speak to things that specifically happened to me). When things got passed off I went back and tried again a few different times, since some old friends played there, and there were some fun new people to play with. I'm a sucker for getting drug places I know better than to play on just because amg I haven't played with that person in forever.
I have plenty of stories about the current staff on the game, but neither group even manages to smell like scotch broom, let alone roses.
As well, keep in mind that under their full consent rules, they are very much anti-consequence. Common sense has not in the past been applied with them, and these two are very gung-ho on staff not getting involved unless it's something like harassment.
For example, someone refusing to follow in-the-book sphere rules complained about not wanting to have to do so, and in response the IC reality was changed, adding a different political group to the grid that was NPC based and did not enforce consequences that the PC in question could belong to, rather than making the character face any sort of consequences. It was quite ridiculous.
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RE: New Prospect MUSH
@The-Tree-of-Woe said:
@Arkandel said:
Just because there are no Storytellers on staff it doesn't mean there are no Storytellers.
Having played on City of Hope, it means exactly that. And that whatever supernatural critter the staffers play (at CoH, mages) will get tons of candy. The others will be whacked with the nerf-bat.
I will second that there will be no Storytellers if they behave at all like they did back before they handed the game off, in which a staffer got involved with a player storyteller's plot with their character, took the scenes completely over and tried to edge people out, and threw an absolute fit when the player storyteller wasn't interested in just changing their plot to an outcome that suited the staffer.
They talk a good talk about ethical behavior, and are lying through their fucking teeth.
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RE: What's That Game's About?
@Bennie said:
It all comes down to the Approval and the Staffer who does so. A lot of games are fearful of approaching new players to their game for a conversation about their concept. So the concepts slide into home plate, one after the other.
What? This statement is nonsense.