@saosmash said in The Metaplot:
@mietze Proactive players who actually run with things immediately get branded as part of the staffers' pets' clique, though, so I mean, it's just kind of the nature of the hobby at this point.
Well, if you're getting responses to your @mail, +jobs, etc. and others aren't … sounds like a pet to me. (Not saying that you're the problem in this scenario, note!)
@mietze said in The Metaplot:
I don't really count player response to metaplot here, because I'm not sure it's that important.
If the majority of your player base isn't even just ignoring the metaplot but actively hiding from it, you probably have a problem in your metaplot. So that's one level of where player response is important.
Then there's the other problem that kills such plots dead: due to staff incompetence (in that they think the plot needs to progress in one specific, rigid way) a key item that would move the plot forward falls into the hands of a packrat player. The packrat player sees the significance of the item and packs it away for "future use" as an attempt to gain leverage. Then, as packrats are wont to do, forgets about it with the next shiny that he stumbles over. The plot languishes because this one McGuffin is needed to move it forward but it is effectively out of play and the staff, being idiots, won't work around it.
You always have to take player response into account when designing your plots, with everything from "why are all the players fleeing?" (in the Marrach storm "plot" people actually finally got so tired of it they froze their accounts--impacting Skotos' already-failing income directly--until the plot was resolved…so for multiple months) to "why are the players overlooking this BLATANTLY OBVIOUS CLUE?" (hint: it probably isn't obvious from the outside) to "where did all the plot-fu McGuffins go? (hint: you need more, stat).
(protip--if "nobody" is getting what you want out of the scene the problem may be your clues aren't as "obvious" as you think!).
Quoted for emphasis. STAFF PLOTTERS PAY FUCKING ATTENTION HERE!
@Ganymede said in The Metaplot:
@WTFE said in The Metaplot:
Nobody in the Marrach plot wanted to be divas. They wanted to play a game the way it was supposedly meant to be played and to not be bothered by a plot they had no ability to access, even, not to mention actually PARTICIPATE in.
Maybe I'm not understanding. What do you mean by playing "a game the way it was supposedly meant to be played"?
Marrach was advertised as a "grand stage" in which you played out "your story" and in which you were responsible for your own fun and made your own plots with the guidance and assistance of the "StoryPlotters". They had other grades of game in their nomenclature (none of which ever saw the light of day because, well, Marrach sucked so badly they never got the customers) in which you were meant to be integrated into a tightly-plotted story.
Marrach did have an overarching plot, but this plot was extremely general and could be largely ignored for most practical purposes. It could be treated as window dressing effectively.
And again, I stress, this is how the game was sold. Indeed when people complained that there was nothing to do, staff explicitly pointed to this and said "you're meant to make your own fun".
And then out of the blue they force a "weather plot" in which you had no choice but to participate in or get harassed, even though 90% of the people playing couldn't actually participate even if they wanted to. Basically "participation" in this metaplot was forced, but also defined as "watching and applauding" and until the usual suspects actually figured out whatever it was that was making Lord Foulweather fart in the wind or whatever you had no choice but to deal with the annoyances of the "plot".
@Ganymede said in The Metaplot:
So, I think the main problem is the players trying to be the divas. The other problem is the staff having no idea of what makes for, or how to write, a great story.
Nobody in the Marrach plot wanted to be divas. They wanted to play a game the way it was supposedly meant to be played and to not be bothered by a plot they had no ability to access, even, not to mention actually PARTICIPATE in.
Seriously, I'm not exaggerating here. Fully 90% of the player base wasn't even allowed in the half of the setting that would have all the actual plot-fu. The entirety of their participation, if they chose to get involved, would be to sit on the sidelines and ooh and ah while their social betters--the same social betters as always--did the actual plot. At best they might get some crumbs of activity like "deliver this scroll that I could far more efficiently deliver myself but I'm going to 'involve' you because I'm so magnanimous" (with no ability to actually read the scroll, or to pass it off to someone else instead, or, you know, to do anything except that one thing or nothing).
…edited to add…
I'm struggling with trying to get across just how dysfunctional the staff were at Marrach. And I think I have the perfect example. When the mass exodus began, and while Skotos still laboured under the delusion that they could actually make the game profitable, the actual paid staffers started doing interviews of "randomly" selected (protip: it probably wasn't random) players on the grid. One person who got such an interview was asked what it was he was looking for in a plot that would make him satisfied. His answer was (paraphrased because this was too many years ago for me to directly quote): "I want to have the chance to make a visible contribution to the resolution of a plot."
The staff went ape-shit on this guy in the game's BBS. They filed off his name, but in that way that made it clear who they were talking about. Then they shamed him as a "prima donna" who "could never be happy if he wasn't the centre of attention". Basically the desire to be seen doing something that contributes to a plot--note that resolves it, not that is instrumental to it, but just fucking contributes to it!--was anathema to these turds. They really did believe that the goal of most players should be to just sit and watch.
This is how dysfunctional a game we're talking about.
@Ganymede said in The Metaplot:
@Tempest said in The Metaplot:
The problem arises when people expect the entire game around them to cater to the thing they want to do, and they get mad when it doesn't.
Nah, this is the real problem, @WTFE.
I'm playing on two games where the Metaplot is all-encompassing and inescapable, and no one seems particularly perturbed by that. Sure, the setting revolves around the Metaplot, but that's just good implementation. You couldn't escape The Descent's metaplot, and you're not escaping BSG: Unification's metaplot.
Not alive, at least.
Tightly-themed games are tightly themed. This is not a surprise. I don't know what The Descent is, but BSG is a very narrow environment whose entirety is impacted by anything that happens to it. When you sign up for such a game you (should) know what you're getting yourself into.
Marrach, on the other hand, was advertised as a "grand stage" (their term, not mine!) in which you were supposedly able to play out "your story" (again, their wording). Indeed all over the fucking place they tell you that you're on your own for making stories; that while yes there are "StoryPlotters" (their term, not mine, I emphasize) that you are responsible for your own fun.
And then they threw shit like the storm "plot" at the player base. Something you increasingly couldn't escape even though a) nobody wanted any part of it (modulo some staff-pals), b) even if you did want a part in it, you couldn't get one, and c) even if you could get one, that part would basically be "audience".
Again, I think it's perfectly fair to look at that situation and say "ugh, the metaplot sucks".
@Tempest said in The Metaplot:
Makes me wonder, did this Castle Marrach staff hide behind anonymity? IE no record of who they played and they generally wouldn't even say which staffer was making decisions or doing things in-game that affected players?
They tried. They failed because they were incredibly bad at it. It typically took about four days, tops, for it to be really clear which player had just been elevated into a new staff bit.
@Arkandel said in The Metaplot:
I think a big problem is we often make here is that we mistake a general concept with its worst implementations .In other words, that we look at the way staff at a specific game we played did a thing and extrapolate from that that the thing is always bad.
Hope for the best. Plan for the worst.
I don't think metaplot is always bad, just for the record. I was specifically addressing a case where it's pretty obvious that it's perfectly legitimate to say that you don't want to play something but are being forced into it.
In terms of the metaplot in particular it shouldn't be something you want to escape. It ought to be the reason you are there in the first place!
Yeah, "should" is a tricky word that way. The problem is that a lot of metaplots are designed by people who can't plot worth shit and who don't play well with others (as in, their plots don't change if people impact them).
Then I come in and I want to do my thing; I want to bring back civilisation in a year or less. I toss +jobs at you with wikipedia links about making solar panels and try to build mech suits and use drones strikes to defeat my enemies; I mean that's definitely great, and it could be awesome for a game, but as long as you make it clear what game you are trying to play then what am I doing in it? Is it fair that I complain your metaplot sucks? It doesn't suck... it's just not what I like, and it's not your fault I tried to turn your MU* into following my vision.
That would be the opposing extreme, yes. Both extremes suck. But staffers who don't recognize that people like this exist are heading for burn-out if they don't prepare for this. Hope for the best. Plan for the worst.
@Lisse24 said in The Metaplot:
This is actually my problem with metaplot, in how they're most often used to describe happenings on a game - they're inaccessible.
That would be the example of "people who can't plot worth shit" I mentioned above. 
@Tempest said in The Metaplot:
as it has screwed you up when you were trying to RP something that interested you more?
This complaint genuinely baffles me. Not targetted at you, but I've seen other people make similar complaints over the years."I just want to play X, not be forced to deal with Y, ugh!"
Okay...go do your thing in the corner if you can find other people interested in it?
The problem arises when people expect the entire game around them to cater to the thing they want to do, and they get mad when it doesn't.
No, the problem is when staff makes a metaplot so intrusive you can't escape it. And, indeed, when you try to escape it or avoid it they go out of their way to make sure that the plot follows you around.
Example from a pathological MU*: Castle Marrach. There was once a metaplot on that. (It withered on the vine for many reasons, but in my time there it was active. If you want to call what was happening "action".) At one point in the metaplot, the consort of the queen (whose name I've forgotten because it doesn't fucking matter), who was somewhat of a weather mage, got into a foul mood and it got reflected in the weather. Players were expected to jump through the hoops to find out why Lord Foulweather (not his real name, duh!) was upset and do something to soothe him. Since, however, most people didn't even really know Lord Foulweather existed, and those who knew he existed knew next to nothing about him besides that, this plot was met with a joint, loud yawn from everybody except the five players who routinely got plot bones handed to them to gnaw on. (And who were actually in a position IC where they could even go to where plot-fu was happening.) The rest just ignored the occasional weather emits.
This pissed off the staff. So they ramped up the weather emits. People still ignored them.
This pissed off the staff even more so they ramped up the weather emits more and added code that made it hard to move around anything that was outdoors (the wind would push you back, or a snow flurry would disorient you and send you to the wrong exit, or exits would be impassable because of piled-up snow, etc.). People still tried to ignore this.
This brought staff to the brink of insanity and they actually had some people FREEZE TO DEATH (this wasn't the huge handicap it would be in other games--basically it was a day of no RP) after being trapped out-of-doors.
All this to force a plot nobody wanted anything to do with.
When metaplots reach this level of disruption, I think "I want to play X and not be forced to deal with Y" is a perfectly valid reaction, don't you think?
So what are you distinguishing it by? Nationality? Why don't the actions of Soviet atheists count toward one's valid apprehension toward atheism, exactly?
Tell me next time you see the Soviet Union suppressing Christians.
(Or, for that matter, the next time you see the Soviet Union at all.)
Currently in Russia it is--again--the Christians who are doing the suppression.
@WildBaboons said in RL Anger:
It likely depend on where you live. I live near the border. It's not uncommon for US citizens to go to Canada for some procedure for way cheaper, but more common to have Canadians coming here to have stuff done they didn't want to wait for up there.
Waits for elective procedures are commonplace, yes. But the thing is, elective procedures are elective for a reason: they're not considered medically necessary. If people want to spend extra money Down South to get medically unnecessary treatment that bugs me not even slightly. It won't have any meaningful impact on health statistics.
You know. The health statistics that should make Americans cringe every time they look at them.
Those ones.
My German teacher in high school was a Russian orthodox nun who managed to escape the Soviet Union where over 250,000 priests and nuns were rounded up and murdered by atheists. Given the track record of atheists in the 20th century, well that ought to turn many a Christian white with fear.
If you were in Soviet Russia you'd have a point. And, indeed, I'd be saying it with you. I'm not a huge fan of capital-A Atheists (like the Oh-So-Rational Trinity: Dawkins, Hitchens, and that closet wannabe Buddhist, Sam Harris) and their approach to dealing with the religious, after all.
You're not, however, and thus you don't. Hence, I'm not.
@WildBaboons said in RL Anger:
It's like being Canadian but without the waiting.
You know, all this verbiage and I've never had to wait for a necessary procedure. Ever. Even semi-voluntary procedures like my knee surgery my "wait" was a grand total of two weeks from seeing the sports injury specialist and being wheeled in on the gurney--and five days of that was my schedule causing problems!
It's almost as if there's political forces at work that want to spread that "yeah, but you have to WAIT" meme while carefully pointing you away from just how much your systems are costing you for how little benefit...
@Sunny said in High Fantasy:
Any suggestions on where to find that rant? I poked around for it for a while and found several references to it without actually finding it. I'm curious.
It's just a game.
I hate fun.
I hate fun - One year later.
The guy comes across as an insufferable twat. I really wish I'd read his blog before buying his game. I'd have known to run away screaming instead of spending my money.
Here's a review of the game that pretty much cuts to the core of why I dislike it.
The only truly democratic process of our alleged democratic elections are what are called the "Primaries". This is when the two-party system (Democrats and Republicans) field a number of prospective candidates per party as options to vote for.
You have two parties? I thought you had only the one (Plutocrats) who had two ever so slightly different branch offices ("Democrats" and "Republicans").
@Misadventure said in High Fantasy:
There are also a variety of simplified skill approaches out there. ACKS may be the one whose approach I liked best. You get + stat in any skill, and +level and stat for selected skills. So everyone can try, and class/personal choice still matter. And you can of course RP that to whatever detail you like. many of the "Hacks" offer very simple yet fast and sometimes well done ways to play.
You know that dates back to the '80s with Rolemaster, right?
@Tempest said in High Fantasy:
I have no idea what we're talking about.
"Lamentation of the Flame Princess" sounds awesome tho.
It's a great title.
It's a pretty shitty game. I got taken in by the title and some hype men pitching it and got myself a copy plus some supplements in a bundle. It's ... pretty lame. Not actively bad like Synnibar or FATAL or their ilk, which is actually a stroke against it because those are at least hysterical reading.
Then I read the author's rant against people having fun in games and the penny dropped.
@WTFE So that they can gerrymander the counties and take control of everything without having the popular vote
It's not a true democracy, it's technically a republic.
That's the reason that the PTBs want you to register.
WHY ARE YOU REGISTERING!?
@surreality said in RL Anger:
The great whopping 'fuck you' with two birds flying re: ideological purity tests that are so gallingly common in political life in the US right now are one of the reasons I'm registered Independent and am very comfortable there.
You have absolutely no idea just how fucking Orwellian that whole "registered <party>" thing sounds to non-Americans. It's like you're making lists of people to be put up against the wall when one side or the other gets their final victory.
WHY THE FLYING FUCK WOULD YOU REGISTER YOUR POLITICAL AFFILIATIONS!?
- One political party has quadrupled down on representing Christianity, running on God-centric tickets, in a country with freedom of religion for all religions. This places a face to a political movement. See Important Note above. Many of these candidates have run against women's medical rights, LGBTQ rights, and per Important Note above, creates a feeling of the religion taking a stance via political domination.
It doesn't help that there is a sizable Christian group that does literally believe they should be ruling. (Check out Dominionists some time. Then have a long shower using lots of soap to get rid of that horrible skin-crawling sensation. Then consider this: Canada's PM for a decade was a Dominionist…)
@WTFE I'm so sorry that you had all of those experiences, and for the role that Christians played in them, I apologize to the extent that I'm able. My family and my church condemned such extremist and uncalled for measures in the 80's and I continue to do so now. I'm sorry you felt hated and judged and isolated, if I was present and could have stopped it, I like to believe that I would have. Please believe me, that I'm currently trying to do what I can to keep anyone from feeling that way in the future. I want to state unequivocally that the way you were treated was wrong and unChristlike and it should not have happened.
I do not expect sympathy for Christians crying oppression. They (We) are not oppressed.
I would like there to be understanding on both sides about why the opposite side feels the way that it does, so that, perhaps some years down the road, the hatred can stop and there can be healing.
You don't have to apologize for the actions of others. I'm just explaining to you why it is that Christians have such a bad name among non-Christians these days. Weirdly enough, I don't actually hate Christians (and I tend to tear capital-A Atheists a new asshole when they're being obnoxious about their anti-Christian rants). But boy HOWDY am I gun-shy around a newly introduced one until I figure out where they stand on things.
And, inevitably, that is going to hurt some who don't deserve it.
The rift between the Christian community--especially its more vocal and "conservative" element (although it baffles me to this day what they think they're "conserving" with their foolishness!)--and the non-Christian community will take time and effort to close. And, while this may seem unfair (and could very well be), it will be the Christians taking the bulk of the effort for this wound to heal.