Posts made by Ghost

@Thenomain NO, YOU CAN KEEP YOUR +1.

As far as that other thread goes, I don't have an actual complaint per se, but was more tying in that experience into the greater topic at hand. I read back through it a few days ago because someone +1'd a post of mine after 5+ months, and at some point every now and then someone posts something like: Well, I'm not going to post an apology for something NOW, seeing how people are dogpiling on people trying to follow the spirit of the thread"

I think some of the more constructive threads follow this format:

• Constructive topic! Let's be constructive.
• Someone posts in spirit of topic
• Someone corrects poster
• Poster retorts
• Dogpile begins
• Ten posts arguing semantics
• People shy away from posting about constructive topic
• Personal attacks
• What were we talking about again?
• Attempt to re-rail topic happens
• Someone corrects poster
• Poster retorts
• Dogpile begins
• Ten posts arguing semantics
• People shy away from posting about constructive topic
• Personal attacks
• What were we talking about again?
• Attempt to re-rail topic happens
• Repeat...

@surreality Agreed. Non-personal griping can really open a good discussion on conduct, how to write policies, etc. God knows you and I have talked at length about all of your awesome policy write-up ideas. I love the way you focus on the bigger picture when thinking about these things, and the ability to bring up behaviors and other issues, without personal attacks, is really just problem identification and a solid part of the improvements process.

Having said that, I think a lot of people on the boards are always on the lookout for being someone's vague-post topic. The assumption is, if it's being made vague on MSB, it's being far less vague via pages, and people want to know if they're being complained/shit talked in a way where they can neither address the problem, nor defend their actions, purposeful or not.

So I think with many of these vague posts about behaviors there's always a quick round of OMG ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT ME? that happens, which determines whether or not it needs to be a fight, ugly, etc.

LOL I think we've messaged each other a few times with: "heyyyyy that wasn't about me was it? Are we okay?"

Yeah, because shit goes from okay to NOT OKAY in the blink of an eye around here sometimes.

Who the fuck can relax, rp, and have fun while having to watch out for that shit?

@Miss-Demeanor said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

Vitriol on, MSB. Get it out in the format specifically set up to be that pressure release valve.

People love being negative as a pressure release, but they typically hate being responsible for the collateral damage in the wake of their negativity.

MSB is upstream from almost every current MU playspace, and pissing into it, pressure release valve or not, runs a high risk of polluting everyone's drinking water, all across the hobby.

The defense rests, Your Honor.

@surreality said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

In all seriousness, since we are now arguing about the ways in which people choose to argue, shouldn't this be the meta-meta-discussion?

<rubs her temples and reaches for the tylenol>

ANNOUNCEMENT Ever since WORA, I have been gathering research on what it would take for the MU community to be civil towards each other and survive simple discussions without arguing, being triggered, bringing up old theories about why someone is a bad person because of assumed intent (which clearly, never, comes from the self), trolling, references to Spider and how someone is like her, people showing up to tutt-tutt about how their rude comments aren't rude because they have decided they're accurate, or to argue the Oxford vs Harvard definition of the word: moist.

I believe I have the answer.

Simply travel by plane, train, or automobile to Nebraska, where a meager 7 hour journey by foot through the wilderness will bring you to my Men of Letters style bunker where I have condensed the rules, bylaws, personality profiles, extensive lists of triggers and things which shall never be mentioned, lists of words you are not allowed to use, every person's collective MU history and qualifications for what is or is not a good example, condensed lists of people who have muscled enough forum clout that they can't seem to be able to accept being disagreed with, RAPEY PLAYERS LISTS, graphical flow charts on who is cool based on who else thinks they're cool, and (my personal favorite)...a codebase repository of homegrown MU tools made by people trying to be constructive to the hobby.

For a monthly service plan of $3455.95 (awesome for me, because this will be a lifetime study), you, too, will know what it takes to navigate these troubled social waters.

...Or you can just understand that the community hasn't been any different in nearly 20 years, that you take risks in communicating with strangers online, and that while there are many mature, level-headed roleplayers out there, you will also have to share the environment with any number of people whose sole, social outlet is the internet, and in doing so, it's a roll of the dice.

Trying is important. Understanding when it fails is also important. In the end, it comes down to: is the juice worth the squeeze?

Edit: tl;dr/my point: All it takes is witnessing a positive social environment (that works hard to play well together, get along, and take care of each other) to be able to identify one that symbiotically relies upon the whole, like a bad marriage, dysfunctionally.

@Miss-Demeanor That sounded like a very shitty day, I sympathize.

When someone wants to know the positive/negatives of a game, the source of the review is important. You don't go to Vegan websites for reviews on Omaha Steaks. People with negative outlooks and negative behaviors blow shit way out of proportion and tend to do everything in their power (on these forums) to make a place in which, by definition, they might have been inconvenienced into a place that boiled their beloved pet rabbit. Then the voyeurs and people who love to get to throw rocks, too (titillation) hop on the dogpile, and in the end, it really wasn't so much a constructive review as it was just a bunch of people taking their negative shit out on a place.

I'd put the accuracy of airing actual grievances or criticism on this forum at around 10-15%

I, personally, would rather hear the good then receive some straight, emotionless details on what the game's challenges are. Usually the amount of log activity, or logs themselves, are a good indication of some things, whereas taking a 2 week test drive of a game tends to be FAAAAAAR more accurate a review with FAR less subjective propogandist bullshit.

@WTFE said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

@faraday said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

…I regarded [Electric Soup] as a success while it lasted.

Literally everything is a success while it lasts. Even if it lasts a few microseconds. What you said up there is basically the equivalent of "the operation was a success until the patient died on the table".

There was very little constructive point to this reply, and I think this is a prime example of the kind of attitude people are talking about on MSB.

• Technically it's not a failure if you dont try?
• We're all dying because our cells are degrading?
• "TECHNICALLY, you're stupid if you think something on the internet is successful because by 2245 we're gonna have the psi-net and all internet usage is gonna be laughed at like Geocities webpages and go away so HAH! FAILURE!"

You had an opportunity to keep the topic about Electric Soup and instead chose to wax negative on the definition of success.

So, seriously, there's no need for responses like this.
--On Point

Is there anything left of Electric Soup? I must have missed this entirely or it was before my time. Anything about it I can read up on?

To be honest, I think @faraday has the right idea. Without an open attempt to bring people together, the sense of "I love this hobby but everyone I rely on to provide me with it can go fuck themselves" with simply remain. It's too easy to break people down using this medium. The Hog Pit alone seems to generate negative behavior in some people on a Pavlovian level.

I, 100%, support the creation of an anti-Hog Pit board. A White Lantern to the Black Lantern board. A negative, alternate universe-turned positive environment where the posts are intended to be truly constructive, positive, helping each other out, and not in that "Jamie, I love you, but constructively you'd be less of a cunt if you'd stop..." way.

About 4 months ago I had the bright idea of opening a grieving/apology/disclosure thread where I thought it might be healthy for people to use it as a means to get some weight off of their shoulders or apologize to people for any of the 750,000 ways communication gets cross-wired in this hobby.

It took about all of 10 minutes, if that, before it turned into a grudge fest of bitter, unethical people I used to RP with trying to use the thread as a means to attack me, an argument as to what constitutes as an actual apology, and a bunch of negative dogpiling.

Maybe if some of y'all motherfuckers held your social gathering in an environment lined with pictures of cute kittens and free hugs, some of you would be less prone to spend so much time correcting each other and trying to find common ground?

I say, fuck it, it's worth a shot.

(Disclaimer: And no, I'm not going to discuss that apology thread or partake in the topic being derailed into the Ps and Qs of what happened there. I chose to not defend myself on that thread because doing so would have taken away from the point I started that thread. The Ps and Qs aren't important, though had I chose to defend myself it would have been ugly and stupid, so I chose against. Please stay on topic. The apology thread, in itself, is an example as of the latent negativity and culture of dissent.)

@mietze said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

Everyone knows that everything you say in skype and all always gets back to people eventually.

I can agree with you on this. I can attest that this is one-hundred percent true.

Edit/Addition: ...But it doesn't stop it from happening as if it won't get back to the person.

@mietze said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

In fact, I see people calling each other out on their personal hypocrisy far less than they could

The ONLY reason we don't see more drag-out, fist throwing, hair-pulling personal attacks on this forum is because if done here, it would be tied to an identity, and that identity could potentially lose out on RP, be excluded from games, and even being involved in a nasty personal whistleblowing stint on MSB could cause reputational damage.

That's why you really only see it when someone has hit the gives zero fucks point.

This is why all of the private gossip, exclusion, reputational my damaging conversations, and making fun of people happens on Discord, Skype, Facebook, and pages with controlled groups of buddies people trust to not rat on them.

@faraday I don't think that's what people want. I know that's not what I'd prefer, but there is an unspoken MSB board tai chi about how you post an opinion, with which language, or how strongly you feel about it to avoid the dogpiling.

You? Hah. I don't know how you do it, @faraday. I try to type like I talk in real life. I try to be the genuine article and sometimes that means my inflection gets lost in the text-translation, You've always maintained this sort of constructive, even-handed approach on the boards, even when you've flat out disagreed with me on some topics, and I respect the level of respect you treat people with. You seem to be a very nice person and it shows. It's like you have Professor X's delivery and I feel like I have Wolverine's. Having said that, do you sometimes reword statements to remain diplomatic and avoid getting stuck at the bottom of the dogpile?

You may be more naturally eloquent than I am in your board posts, maybe you type on these boards precisely as you talk in real life, under stress or not, but I do know my more "less diplomatic, more blue collar" writing style on these forums has gotten me into unexpected dogpiling on more than ten occasions, and I put my success rate of being to talk my way out of it somewhere around 45%

@Shlappy I get ya. We see it with celebrities every day. You're one misspelled word or accidental implication away from having a mob on your doorstep demanding you be doxxed, fired, excoriated from society, chased to everywhere you rp, and boycotting MSB all because you have a difference of opinion as to what constitutes as an apology in what you thought was a simple, casual discussion.

It's smarter for you to moderate the forum, not participate much, and enjoy your rp without fear of a difference of opinion stamping you as persona non grata and having it infiltrate the main reason you're in the community in the first place: To seek roleplay and creativity with relatively small amounts of harassment.

I can't remember who said it earlier, but they were right. Discord and Skype? Oh, cut and pastes would get people banned from games and reveal the shady underbelly of PVP harassment and shit talking that permeates this hobby. I wish I'd kept logs. I'm very well aware of some people right now, or in the past, involved in untrue accusations about myself floating around just to arm cliques against me and lock me out of RP over petty stuff.

It happens. It's real. There's some fucked up, behind the curtain shit going on, and when I witness it (per my earlier comment about how when someone talks shit about everyone but you, that it means when you're not around, you're being bad-mouthed, too), nothing makes me want to keep distance more.

@Three-Eyed-Crow Oh I gotcha. I wasn't feeling accused or backed up into a corner. I think you've made a great point. I just threw in some details about that whole situation because that 100/5W discussion is a larger part of the reason when I, personally, feel I started identifying where I wanted to step away from the larger problem.

Long and short? I think the negativity issue on MSB is a lot like when you've got a friend who says bad things about everyone they know. You hear all kinds of dirt on everyone: Your friends, strangers, their friends, everyone but you. So...Does that mean that when they talk to others, they're not talking about you? Probably not.

It was after that 100 thread, maybe a bit before, but definitely after it I gave it enough thought to alter my approach, that I realized I was surrounded by people who had a lot to say about a lot of people. I don't really wanna be a part of that anymore.

@Three-Eyed-Crow said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

I think you were often guilty of this in The 100 thread, actually, seemingly over stuff that happened on another game entirely...I think Fifth World?

I was. Absolutely. And while I've said apologies to the people involved, moved on with myself having learned a little about myself in the process ("Why did I care?" "Was I trying to achieve anything at all by that?" "In the grand scheme of things, does it really fucking matter what I feel about a FREE game?" "Was I just being a dick?"), it's up to them to decide if they want to associate with me at all since then, and thus, if they ever start a new game and I wanted to play, I'd reach out to them first and ask if my presence was welcome. I figure that's the mature way to handle it.

Edit: Yeaaaah, I was being a troll and petty little fuck about it, too. I jumped a bandwagon and missed an opportunity to be more constructive.

I'm not saying that I was never a part of the bullshit, I'm just saying I had a mental click a while back and realized the negative feedback loop on Hog Pit that I was participating in was adding to a large, more communal problem, that was circling back and making the hobby a polluted environment for me. It's like a systemic infection. Just because I was being negative on MSB(the lungs) didn't mean that negativity wasn't following me to Fallcoast (the heart).

I think that when it comes to the negative aspects of MSB people have to ask themselves how much venom they're willing to put into the community knowing the risks that it'll pollute their server-side RP refuge. I don't think some people think holistically enough to be willing to give up their super current right now issue hate this person so much to lay down the sword.

@Three-Eyed-Crow said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

I think games like Firan, and Serenity, and Game of Kings and the like deserved to have what was deeply, grossly wrong with those games brought into the public square.

I agree. In those cases there were ethical concerns where the community turned into a support group. People found out that they weren't the only ones. Hell, even I have more than a few Serenity stories.

However, I also feel strongly that getting involved in that drama, or other people's drama, is fun for some people. It's titillating. When there is no current Firan or Serenity to rally around, the desire for that titillation doesn't go away. The answer, per the Hog Pit (which was also the Hog Pit on the more widely believed to be more negative WORA, which makes me wonder if, by association, the Hog Pit on MSB is doomed to be no better), is to turn on each other. There's a sense of always being on the lookout for Serenity2, Firan2, Mal2, Inara2, VASpider2. From what I've seen, the hate/flame delivery requirements shift to allow for that titillation, and people guilty of far lesser shit than Firan, Spider, etc get the Spider treatment because, hey, titillation.

Titillation.

A lot of people enjoy being socially allowed to throw rocks and not be seen as ugly for doing so, even if it's just jumping in on someone else's rock throwing ceremony. The Schadenfreude is in play.

@Misadventure I'm conflicted on this. MSB should be a good place to find refuge/defense from fucked up players. There are truly unethical, fucked up people in the hobby. The problem is that since some people on these boards have used it as a weapon against innocent people over various stages of butthurt, it's so hard for me to get a read on whether or not I'm reading an honest whistleblowing or a situation where someone has struck first on some kind of one-sided public flaming to gain closure through wrath.

For the most part, unless I see a log, I'm hesitant, and even then, I'm not all that interested in throwing rocks for titillation's sake.

Titillation.

It's kind of like how for hundreds of years, artists perfected the task of using chalk, pencil, and paint to capture all that humanity has to offer. To make art. To inspire. To breathe life onto canvas...

...And then by 2000 A.D. people started drawing penises on everything.

Some people use MSB to make​ art.
Others use it to draw dick-tanks and T-Rex dinosaurs having sex with He-Man.

@Meg said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

I don't think our community would be better off without MSB

You know, the damning part is, I agree with you 100% on this. The community wouldn't be as well off without MSB. I think it's got a useful purpose and could be a pretty positive place if not for the way some egos clash and negativity breeds. MSB is a bit of a double-edged sword like that.

I know that there are some people who like me, some people who don't, but all my opinions aside, I know, in the end, that I'm ethical and I'm not a bad person. So this filter that happens here, I'm self aware enough to know that I can't be the only one who approaches this place like: "Jesus, I don't know why some of these people hate me, but if they knew me in RL, I'm confident they'd think I'm alright." It's like a game of telephone. Everything skews. (Though, @skew is awesome).

Just...Some people like to skew shit either on purpose, or through nasty habit.

@Arkandel Care or not, I was just throwing my two cents in.

Human element or not, it's not going to change and a certain amount of the behavior can be very high school to me. There's risks and cliques and drama and unethical windbags and people who think their opinion holds more weight than others. It's really just people grabbing the mic out of Jerry Springer's hands. It is what it is and what it definitely is, is not to be taken too seriously.

Coming to this place for validation is a bad idea.

So disagree with me or not, it's just how I see it, and I think this place is better used for small talk, figuring out which new games are around, and minor amounts of networking, because on a long enough timeline the human element requires it turn into a redneck mama joke battle Royale of human social bullshit.

I think that WORA and MSB have been responsible for more negative behavior than positive. In fact, I'm of the opinion that WORA and MSB are primarily positive mostly as a resource for finding out which games are the new games.

WORA/MSB help spread and cement the following negative behaviors:

• The creation of cliques centered around board veterans, and the weird maintaining of ooc reputation through board posts alone
• Mob-justice, valid or invalid, gets taken to the boards where anyone unethical with a slightly convincing argument can use the board as a social dominance tool
• Promotion of the player over the character, thus expanding the assumption that all characters are the player
• The ooc connection Nexus for players to spread gossip, which is usually heavily one-sided, and build that into the community's network.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of cases of rapey, stalky, and unethical players who have been called out on the boards, and the community may be better for it. However, there are plenty of unethical people on these boards who come here with a personified agenda and are simply extending their ooc bullshit to these boards. I've seen innocent people who weren't rapey or stalky get turned into scapegoat of the week on these boards by unethical people who sought to salt their ability to find rp over stupid, petty grudges. There's something negative that lives in the DNA of this community, and WORA/MSB have been, by our design, used to maintain that ooc catfighting. People come to these boards prepared for it, and these issues spread to the games themselves, where gossip and petty drama propogates.

Pretty much, if you post here, you should understand that there's a chance people who disagree with you are going to go "fuck that guy" and find out who you play on any given game and avoid you. Which would make sense if you were been stalkerish, but when it happens because of an ooc disagreement on what constitutes as an actual apology, it's just petty and fucktarded.

Margaret Weis' MSHRPG

Edit: JUSTIFICATION

DC HEROES is 90% M&M3e and both involve a ton of coding on an existing IPs product. Both systems are highly hackable and with the proper allocation of points I can make a Shadowcat type phaser that cannot be touched, has Uber grapple, and can suffocate someone in 10 rounds.

MSHRPG is an expired license, is more rp-centric, and has teamwork mechanics. The more "descriptive" chargen and low-crunch dice factor should resonate well with existing SuperMU players who are used to those paragraph +sheets.