Posts made by Lotherio

@thenomain said in Social Systems:

you can’t exactly yell at them for not engaging the game as designed.
I mean, you can, but be careful for not coming off as a complete asshole.

Unless your name is Gygax, then you write a whole article about the difference between official rules (chess/hoyle/poker) and 'not' playing the game. There is a hang up here, game. Your example of the code heavy D&D place where no one plays it but instead sits in bar and plays slice of life RP is more what I'm getting at. The fun of the 'game' and its arbitration are between the players present at the time of deciding that.

Making a complicated add-on system of social stats doesn't seem conducive to me, but then, like others, most of my experience has been with consent based and oft times stat-less MUs. Not games, I like original theme, no one ever tacked on game by default. I think the concept of MUs and game are not mutually exclusive; and I'm one of those who, when presented with stats and social systems, doesn't mind playing as its laid out and tend to enjoy losses more than victories sometimes as it seems to create more story for me in the long run. That's my fun.

Edited to remove italics, my bad habit of putting an asterisk after MU.

@thenomain said in Social Systems:

Imagine how dull a Shadow Run game would be if you weren’t engaging the conceit there in the title of the game!

I can't keep up wholly with the conversation. But what if game wasn't in the title. What if it was just Shadow Run MUSH, and folks only wanted to RP and story tell?

My two cents, I've enjoyed consent based stat-less games as much as I've enjoyed rolling stats and the joy of a failure with trusted people to RP with where finding a solution after failing or letting the story develop from the fail is just as enjoyable.

I don't think a social system could account for all potential in socialization, we're pretty advances socializes by our nature. Its far more complex than combat and lots of systems can make for complex combat mechanics.

My preference is like Ghost hinted, if there is a system in place, using that system. Against NPCs, one roll for success or failure. If needed against another player, my history is that we've been able to work out modifiers, multiple rolls, whatever to the fun of all involved. As @Ortallus suggested, if the other player and I can't work something out, one of us is being far to aggressive on the game concept and its not the place for me, alas.

@surreality said in Social Systems:

We're not really talking about games with a specific focus that's so narrow, though, so far as I can tell, just that combat has a much more defined focus and set of cause and effect chains than almost anything else (especially social things) in most systems, many of which are not designed to be focused so narrowly on combat. Ideally, I would think that for a general focus game, the amount of 'what goes into the outcome' would be roughly similar, be it combat outcomes, crafting outcomes, medical treatment, social fu, etc.

That's my take too, I'm wondering if combat, as complex as it can seem in some systems, is more do to even those systems being abstract enough that we can accept it. Where as social systems can easily have way more complexities due to the variety and complexity of real world socialization. Combat is straight forward where we abstractly can more easily accept what a win and loss is, where as socialization is way more complex I believe. Getting the guard to let you pass vs flirting with the information clerk to get the information are two different things, easily as complex and varied as the circumstance where as swinging a sword or kung-fu'ing someone is pretty straight forward. Part of the players don't like to lose is due more to how much more complex we are socially in real life then combative?

@surreality said in Social Systems:

I can pretty much assure you that's not remotely how it's designed to work at all, but I'm not really gonna go into that here, either. Kind of a digression, though.

Sorry, wasn't trying to imply anything about the other thread, other than that any system could be made to be very complex and that you included medical examples got my brain spinning over here. Like if the focus was medicine, we could really make complex rules (I helped with a database and visio representation of an automated microbiology lab sequence that had 124 steps not included the points of the biologist looking for themselves to make determinations along the sequence). A few dice rolls is over simplified in my mind when most people making a medical character are probably envisioning medical drama version of how medicine works.

Another consideration. I think another way to look at it is that while combat seems complex or more mechanical intensive, it is this way to simplify combat. Aside from dealing with NPCs in a TT/campaign like environment, I think a mechanical social system is over simplifying the complexity of socialization and communication in general. With combat, we're not intimately familiar with it on all its levels and abstraction by system works for most of us; no matter how many foam noddles we swing at each other, taking sharp pieces of metal (or high caliber projectiles) to try and kill each other with is something we don't do every day.

@surreality Just put up the skill thread of pondering. That lead me to this. She put up medicine, but damn how we oversimplify medicine. One roll, or one roll a day. I know all the folks who come in and make a medical character feel cheated in the end when its really just one roll that determine so much stuff all at once. The idea of just triage itself and how that is basically a social skill interaction, who decides what is most important and where to start in a trauma situation.

For me, honestly, I'd rather have medical and social both be RP intensive and, if used at all, stat-lite. I'd rather have dice be consent when players are good with it going either way, it comes down to the trust thing mentioned above. If we trust the people we're playing with we give them lots of liberty and even if we fail the first instances of social or medical, we both know we'll work towards some other resolution. Failing leads to better story, when that trust is there, I'd rather fail a roll knowing it can build more RP, not just be a quick win/loss situation because the winner just wants one thing from the loser.

I'm good with whatever works in favor of the story being told at the time. If dice help move the story along, by all means roll away and pose out the consequences. If there is time, I honestly prefer RP'ing it out. Honestly, I'm here for the RP part, I can do any number of statistical simulation games at a hundred different places on the web from dating to empire building to space exploration and mining. I prefer MU* for the RP side, and I prefer MUSH as the game is far secondary to me after the RP side.

I really don't enjoy PvP in my RP, especially so if code enforced, just not RP to me. A game yes. I trust people to RP the stats they put up in CG. I prefer collaborative RP and storytelling. Its what I've always enjoyed about most comic places, no +stats/dice/rolls to worry about usually. Most players know how to take a fall, most folks can spot the twinks and just avoid them.

@wildbaboons All good, half the time I respond on the phone too. My normal horrid spelling and grammar is enough to cover the times I do the same on the phone because large fingers.

My apology for missing the point of adults 'awakening'. Grizzled vet was only avoided for magic and I got hung up on that term and poor reading skill.

I can honestly say that adults discovering their own magic is just as interesting in such a setting. I would question myself why I'm going D6 system rather than just not going Mage or something else. But it would be interesting, entirely different consideration for the adult discovering the potential with deeper political mindedness on the point of training and all that, as well as purpose and self awareness.

I didn't want focus on 'why the awakening' completely as that feels more campaign (beginning/ending) and personal pref for me is open ended anywhere I go. I have difficulty playing on a place where I can see there is an end point to the Mu*. End of world/save humanity plots are not too fun for me; and not saying adults feel that way if incorporated into such a setting. But instead of middle story arc for what's going on, we just chose the beginning.

The decision for the age wasn't arbitrary just the same either. It is the beginning of something, and I don't want to go into details as it relates to some meta planned for the students and I'd rather they discover more in play about certain elements.

I guess that sounds fickle, just the reason for teens again (only 2nd theme for me, the 3rd was someone else's place) isn't that I'm some kooky pedo, it just felt right for the theme as it was developing.

@wildbaboons Oh, adults are welcomed and there are grizzled vet options that allow more skill points for those motivated to run their own plots, or the even more extra grizzled vets if someone wants to come in and try to run a faction/unit/group and get others involved in faction-esque plots.

I was aiming more overall meta at dealing with the encroachment from another dimension and the return of magic as an element to counter that via the students. This theme is interesting on a broad level for me, I see an appeal to the students, but every aspect of adult I look at is curious too. There's totally room for folks to come in and be in one of the military branches as adults and spend half the time at war (NPC stats of monsters provided for anyone wanting to dice some monsters against fellow players and all). Even the police side of it, there was a lot of looking at society as some future utopia but so a lot of it just being off and how would criminal elements thrive in such a system. Even the pro sports, I could probably just dig in and focus on career athletes, their criticism/commentary on the war.

I think in part, I was considering if it was small player base and I hang up pondering new theme, I wanted something I could change focus of play for myself too as my interest can change, so younger play is sometimes an interest and even on that game, my personal play is focused on adulting oddly enough; running plot for the students, we've gotten a few players and started that, had some great rescue mission for the first event and all.

ETA: Maybe the inclusion of adults and that 'realm' of play should be more forward too?

Double, sorry.

More thinking. I've flip flopped a few themes here. I don't want to open and close things, and I have been. Part of the mix of this theme and having younger chars was deciding if this is the theme I settle into and just play, whats best for me. And that included both adult and school like play I think. And its odd cause I don't really plan to play teen too much, I made one to throw in as support to the few students being played. But if there was enough players to run plots without needing the charbit to help support, I'd be good running for student aged PCs while focusing RP on the police agent charbit.

Got me all curious myself here with the ponderance.

@scissors said in Rise of Legends:

You know I very much enjoy playing with you, and I appreciate that you are willing to do all the work to spin up new games and new themes every now and then. But I gotta ask, why always teenagers? I mean, I did the teen drama RP for a stretch, but after three games I'm completely burnt out. Some of the themes you come up with can be pretty fun to play, if I can play a proper adult character and interact with other adult characters.

This is not a knock. I'm genuinely curious about the focus on teen PCs.

You're golden, not a knock at all. You know, I never thought about it. Now that I think about it, looks like a crazy trend of mine doesn't it?

Not all the themes were teen oriented, just the interesting ones maybe? I don't want to come off as defensive either, I just think at the time of the teen focus, when it crops up, its to be a little more light heart'ed after too much grit somewhere? Maybe I'm making that up. Coral Springs was absolutely meant to be comic oriented (funny, not gritty comic book, sort of like the DC sereis spin on comics, even Gotham has plenty of funny moments), just sky high, nothing serious. Now this one, wasn't going for high school, but in the school part, 1st year college just seemed right.

There was an intermediary theme in consideration that was much more adult oriented in nature too (http://darkedge.wikidot.com/). But this one, yeah there is the teen focus (even with slightly higher bottom age and not high school). I think its more the 'learning' aspect of it and to avoid the whole grizzled vet aspect, what to do with grizzled vets (should have more skill, but magic in D6 with extra dice in CG can blow up quickly enough). Tried to add in the adult aspect, and curiously, I'm playing an adult for more my personal interest, with some avenues to explore there, but adult is left more to players needed to take advantage of willingness to PrP/Storytell and aside from two of us, the limited interest is in the teens. That could be one of the limits on interest too.

@botulism said in Sci Fi/Opera Originality:

@lotherio Which is funny, because in SW you go from A to B in seconds in the movies, especially the new ones.

Exactly that, skip travel enjoy the story and rp parts. I know some people like the coded space mining (trading), but really if I want that I'll fire up old Elite (or Oolite the copy).

I'm okay with travel times per theme, I'm not okay with real time enforced waits to get to distant locations where other players are; and this has happened outside of sci fi. I get it in the time of coded space and economy where it was more game like, but definitely not conducive to rp. It seemed rampant on Star Wars joints in the day.

Just more good for thought. Hearing all sides. With sci fi, the detail is more important for v several reasons. One there are a lot of different ways to represent future tech. From how Ai, robots, drones and nanotech (robotic, not just synthetic components for better functionality of every day items) to how plasma (4th state of matter) works as weapon or energy or something inbetween. Is particle entanglement why we communicate across light years in seconds? Teleported? Second, it's not accepting that the work, but hard and even gritty sci fi gets into science. Stranded team needs to McGuyver there tech to live in hostile environment and build makeshift weapons to fight monsters ( or Gorn). So knowing what a phasers components can be turned into affects outcomes. The question needs to be answered to avoid theme conflict; if ammo/fuel source of communicator isn't known, group one may say energy cell that plugs and plays to run a heater on ice world while group two went with radiation recharge from nanotech surface energy collectors.

All is good in my book but I see this point. And this level of detail and variance could be what @faraday gets a with winning the lottery. Everyone who likes sci fi may see tech differently. Particle entanglement communicators that work between galaxies may be jumping the shark for some where not having AI could turn others off.

I do believe in the end good story of sort still be the draw, but folks should be ready to answer tech questions. They better know why they decided on some tech detail because some may disagree. Bacteria on Mars and Titan was a guest question and may have been a turn off to the new place. For me bacteria was either found and studied to be used in current science and medicine, a virus of earth killed off native specimens, it was only fossil evidence, or just no. The important thing is more it's not of relevant use either way and detailing it would detract from focus. But not having it in theme may be a deal breaker for some; maybe guest wanted to focus on medical research related to that (which is deeper in theme, tholin of outer bodies and oort objects is researched studied and advancing science in theme already).

@apos said in Sci Fi/Opera Originality:

Imo people wanna say, 'Here's a setting I'm making, and I can tell stories in it', when they need to approach it from, 'Here's stories I wanna tell, and this is a setting I can set those in.'

I think I'm different here. If I'm making a setting, I'm looking at it as, here is something I'd enjoy playing in, both writing stories and reacting too. And I look at it more as, I want players that look at it and say, "I can tell stories here, it seems ripe for exploration/plotting/storytelling." If I go some place that seems like the creators have a story to tell and I'm just going to be a part of their story, I tend to shy away myself. Then again, I prefer open ended rather than heavy specific plots and meta arcs (Mr. Invincible, "No matter how many times you save the world, it always manages to get in jeopardy again")

@seraphim73 said in Sci Fi/Opera Originality:

expanding the setting in wildly unthemely directions (that they didn't know were unthemely because either it wasn't spelled out anywhere, they didn't read it, or they didn't care)

Oh, that was probably me, Demos the scientist doing science adventures of no consequence (Indiana Jones style complete with Dr. Renee Belloq science adversary).

The 1st group must be like golden standard, on any mu*, forge ahead in themely directions, without being guided or prodded. I enjoy player good surprises when I check logs by others.

@scissors said in Sci Fi/Opera Originality:

@ganymede said in Sci Fi/Opera Originality:

The main problem I had with Star Wars games is that they did explain things, like why the Force exists because MIDICHLORIANS ARGH DRAMATIC FAILURE RAGE ROLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!

I don't know what you mean. What midichlorians?

You see, the Prequels don't exist in my universe.

I'll jump on the derail of my own topic ... none at all? Not even bad ass Yoda parts of the prequels? Not even Christopher Lee the Sith (Dooku)?

I'll go with fail theme then; common questions noted are answered. It could be the extensive reading too. But still, I'd be interested in others developing or attempting original themes, so its less spreading out into few areas where its much more work to fully cover everything (as pointed out by @Scissors ). I think I have seen the technology issue before that you point out and no one knowing what specifically did exist. That was a topic here wasn't it, in the past year or so?

I have a hard time with established and defined settings, cause I never know enough either.

Just some observations that I'm curious about and open to hearing thoughts about.

There seems some interest in original sci fi/fantasy/space opera, but seems very niche these days. Seems like the big draw in and around this genre is and always will be Star Wars followed by some Trek enthusiasts (loved me Star Trek: TOS back in the day).

I'm wondering, were the remaining interest is in the realm of original theme is. Literally serious curious, I know some folks here enjoy sci fi/etc. hence why I figured posting here might open my mind some on this. My time is more limited, hence that focus on the original sci fi place and something closer to OTT style play, but interest is literally like 2 people. Is the interest in MU*'ing original sci-fi really that dead?

Food for thought on the topic, checking mudstats or mushcode.com's MU* List. Notice the slight grow in small places (1-4 players on ever). Literally there are at least 50 places on these lists (and it takes forever to update, so probably even more places that just haven't submitted at mudstats or mushcode). That means 75+ people are out there just working on separate places. While the hobby seems to have less folks about (not by much, but less), I'm curious if the trend to do your own places is pulling interested parties apart. Where instead of 50 places with 1 to 2 people doing there own thing, having fewer places (10) with 5-10 might be more conducive to growing interest a little; I know a few folks look at a place and if its only a few people they just won't check it out as it could take time to find RP.

Just some thoughts is all.

@thugheaven said in Armageddon MUD:

and made a whole thing about Muds vs. Mushes

This isn't something one person started here, its decades old and predates the early incarnations of what lead through various entities and into MSB today.

Edit: This thread is like a flashback to the 90s for me, when I was in some of those conversations back in the day.