Best posts made by surreality

@ghost said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@surreality well, then perhaps alongside the actual serial harassers, people shouldn't use the Hog Pit as a means to conduct mob justice warfare against people theyre upset with, or were inconvenienced by, or don't like their poses, or descriptions, or PB choices, or differences of opinion, or choice in games, or opinions on how their apologies are worded?

Bluntly: I don't especially care what crusade you're on this week, man. I am trying to keep my mouth shut in this powder-keg of a thread while being pretty horrified by a lot of what I'm seeing go down, so please leave me alone when you're picking targets to pin the 'somebody I feel like singling out for blame for everything I think is wrong with the universe this week' routine, because it's never ended well.

I do not deserve to have that all thrown in my face personally for simply and politely answering a question from @Ganymede that had nothing to do with any of what you're complaining about, and it's not OK with me.

@tnp said in Regarding administration on MSB:

That... was before my time, actually. I wasn't a member then (though I was on various games).

That one wasn't a forum -- it was just a generic website with a couple logs and a few random rants from one person. I think the only other content there for a long time was a thing I sent the owner that was a deliberately silly 'how to not write the world's most ridiculous (usually nude) desc' thing that talked about the old 90s trend of 99DDD boobs and why that made no sense, and similar stuff.

@aria I sometimes hate PBs for this reason.

Sometimes, someone does something so spectacularly shitty I lose favorite flicks over this weird mental glitch. My list of favorite movies I can watch a million times without getting tired of them is thus dwindling.

I might have a problem.

This was not found with the gif button.

It is still a gif, and it is fucking awesome, so I wanted to share it, because it makes my inner art geek and coffee lover make kitten-like trill noises deep down to the cockles of my usually coal-black heart.

And there is no current home for wayward gifs, so I'm putting it here. Enjoy, if you're into coffee and/or art geeking and/or unexpectedly classy gifs. making one over here.

I'm going to add a little to what @Faraday is saying here about the importance of clarity and ease of use.

A handful of years ago, I was doing graphics stuff. It needed to work with two different bits of software. No, I won't name either. Some dev had to be done in one application, and the rest in the other.

One of the two was thoroughly intuitive to me, because it used the sort of interface I 'grew up on'. It's the kind of interface that was considered 'intuitive' and 'poke it to see what happens', especially in mac software, in the early/mid-90s. That's the kind of stuff I learned on -- lots of 'this is the most expensive toy ever' Kai Krause interfaces and such.

These interfaces are generally regarded by people who didn't first lean on them as among the most horrible of all possible experiences, and the general feeling is that they're looking at the controls of an alien spacecraft that's about to crash into a mountain and they have to pick the right glowing dot to roll around with their mouse before the whole thing goes up in flames and it's all over but the crying.

Despite being cool with that kind of interface, I get that.

The other software used a much more 'here are endless drop down menus and hidden sub-menus and clickable text you don't know is even clickable until you click it and commands buried in sub-sub-sub-sub-sub menus under headings that have only the loosest connection to the command you want to run, etc.' approach. When you've put an essential command to save hours of work in a hidden right-click export menu you can only access if you know that tiny line of text is clickable (because it is completely indistinguishable from all of the not-clickable text that's crowding your screen), you have a problem.

Those of us running into issues brought this problem to our rep (who is a saint), but did not seem to get it. He kept insisting, "But it's so easy!" and then not telling us the steps to take to do it. No mention of the hidden clickable text, no mention of hidden drop-downs, etc. Just "It's easy!"

This added insult to injury in ways that did some real damage -- a number of us ended up with whacks to our income every time one of these new 'hidden changes' would go in (which would happen without warning) and we'd end up having to spend 2 weeks trying to figure out where they moved our basic essentials, or haunt the back channels to track down that one developer who would actually give us the list of required steps that no one ever bothered to write down in the first place.

Once we had those things, yes, it was easy -- but you can't operate from the assumption that people do. It sounds like you have the steps laid out, which is good. Don't assume people know what it means, though, or you run the risk of becoming the "it's easy!" guy.

@rnmissionrun said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Granted, it's much worse in the MU* community given it's smaller size but I think this is due to the fact that we, as a community, are not well people. It speaks volumes about the state of our community when the only forum for open discussion of MUs and MUing focuses so heavily on vengeance, shaming and WrongFun. It's no wonder there are so few new people coming into the hobby. Between the general toxicity of the community and the craziness of so many of the folks running games, it's a wonder there are any active games left at all.

See, I'm just not seeing this, either. I have to sit over with @ixokai on this one.

The game I was on most recently isn't exactly a stranger to drama. Did I run into some annoying people? Sure did. Was it any better or worse than in the days before WORA?

Oh, wow, there's not even a comparison. So much better, there just aren't words. And some of that is because we've become more aware as a society, but a lot more of it is because people in the hobby have grown considerably and realized certain things that once were the norm are not a good idea to allow at all.

And maybe, some day, a forum where no one is allowed to say anything negative or mean will be one of those things.

It is clearly not going to be today.

Those changes took time. They evolved. None were the result of someone stomping a foot and saying, "No one is allowed to say mean things any more because that's not OK!"

That people are even engaging in civil discourse about this is an improvement; the level of mockery and vitriol that sentiment would have stirred once upon a time would have been legendary and resulted in the kinds of stories the old farts would still be talking about today, like folks do about the drinking game, or the 'rules of good staffing'.

The wall you're going to hit is not a matter of forum culture, though, or MUX culture. It's the wall of human nature.

Maybe y'all live in a world that's sunshine and rainbows and positivity, but from the sound of things, that's not the case. Shaming or strong-arming people who have different sensitivities and sensibilities and want to engage in a different way than you do is not going to bring about that change, it's negativity in its own right and will breed negativity in return.

My crazy cousins have determined that Thanksgiving feastivities will be enduring through Saturday.

At some point on Saturday, this is going to happen.

We are mostly old farts and none of us are getting any younger, but you can be damned sure I'm charging the phone up for that shit (for insurance purposes when someone inevitably ends up sent to the hospital if nothing else).

Thanksgiving Thunderdome: TWO COUSINS ENTER, ONE COUSIN LEAVES.

...did I mention my relatives are insane? I have neon green and teal and orange hair at the moment and I'm the sane adult in the room most of the time. (Y'all just go on and be properly horrified by that, 'cause fuck knows I am.)

@thatguythere Dude, we just have the one flying car so far, but...

I think the color stuff is the MUXify thing -- all the code snippets show up with it generally. I don't think you'd be seeing that on the actual MUX at all.

@rnmissionrun That I'll agree with -- in the sense that I'm optimistic enough that I think people do strive to embrace those virtues.

The hostility is, from all I have perceived of it over time, basic human behavior. Generally, people acting like high schoolers. Which was fine when most of the people in the hobby were actually in high school or early college, but has lingered more than it ideally should.

I don't see things going any different in any other aspect of life, though. That we have these arguments without the endless rape threats, political bomb-throwing, or even more 'lol k' shitposting than we have already speaks volumes for the integrity and intelligence of the community, regardless.

@sockmonkey I would threaten to take tap dancing lessons if she doesn't can her entitlement pronto. Perhaps decide I just had to learn the tuba late in life. Develop an unhealthy worship of dubstep. Learn the macarena. Just happen to have a tic that involves only being able to self-soothe after confrontations with neighbors that requires perfectly bouncing and catching a hi-bounce ball 300 times, despite always screwing up and having to start over on bounce 299...

...or put on porn with a glass to the floor to hear how much complaining is going on about me having sex whilst giggling madly.

I would definitely be complaining to the landlord about their complaining, though.

@three-eyed-crow I only flagged his things that appeared outside the Hog Pit, but I flagged them when I saw them as well.

Until the night he was banned, zero feedback.

These folks' behavior is not subtle. It is not easily confused with the kind of petty sniping, catty snark, condescending bullshit, or GIF wars the regulars get into and maybe or maybe don't get worked up about. It's kinda past time for pretending it's hard to tell apart, because it's just not.

@Collective I don't think there's something out there with all of that built in at this time.

The basic TinyMUX install I think has the basic SGP globals, but you'd need to acquire and install the rest. There are some tips about where to get some of the things you'll want, but a lot can be found on mushcode.com.

@wizz said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@surreality said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Those changes took time. They evolved. None were the result of someone stomping a foot and saying, "No one is allowed to say mean things any more because that's not OK!"

OK, boiling down the whole argument to "I don't like it when people are mean" is not what @faraday or I are talking about and it's a little condescending that that is what you and @ixokai are trying to make it about.

And that's not actually what I said. There's a difference between stating a distaste for something and deeming it unacceptable behavior; it may not be relevant to you, but it actually is to me, and my words were chosen deliberately to reflect that.

It also directly relates to the repeated reality we're presented with: 'my standard is here, yours is over there, and yet we have third parties whose standard (the 'everything but praise is an assault') is in yet a different place'.

For my part, I also wasn't trying to apply some weird equivalence of the behavior here and on WORA to the entire, full-stop, MU*ing community and literally everyone in it.

You haven't. Others indeed have. I wasn't replying to you or to @faraday, either.

(If you haven't encountered it there, wow, great. That's a genuinely a good thing, no sarcasm intended at all.)

Sure I've had crappy experiences on games.

Very rarely with anyone on this forum.

Shit, I've had fun with @Tempest on a game that was wholly constructive, collaborative, and entirely civil and friendly, with no improper behavior anywhere to be found, and she makes no bones about trolling and being snarky here. Would that be what you'd expect? Probably not, but it's still the reality of the situation.

I also keep saying: wow, was it ever worse before WORA. So much worse.

I mean, you either see it, or you don't. You either recognize the attitude that exists here as a problem, or you don't.

Well then, I guess I just don't. My experiences are wholly and completely contrary to your premise.

Is there stuff that goes on here I don't think is OK? Sure. Plenty of it. Odds are high it's not the same things any other person would point out, because as I said repeatedly before and repeated yet again above, different people have different sensitivities and different sensibilities. For instance, I swear by rote. I mean no offense by it whatsoever, and am not offended by the use of profanity at all. Does that mean no one is ever going to take offense or be offended by it? Of course not.

Ultimately I think the purpose this whole conversation serves is to show what percentage of the board feels one way or the other, which to be honest is also a great barometer for "whether or not this iteration of the forum is a good fit for you."

^ This, yes.

@sockmonkey Definitely try to talk with your landlord if you can. That there's someone in another building they're giving grief, who sounds like they would happily also provide an account of some kind, can only help here.

Even if they don't leave, it is possible that word from the landlord re: harassing their neighbors and people in neighboring buildings is not something that will be tolerated, and they'll chill out. If not, or if they start hassling him/filing complaints based on 'was walking in the apartment after 9pm OMG THE HORROR!!!' I have a feeling he'll toss them out on their asses post haste for bothering him.

@lithium It's not so much a not reply, it's the 'how dare you vent about something!' that is something I think people need to maybe take a step back and get some perspective about. It's vent space... people are gonna vent.

That particular objection seems designed for nothing more than to bully, silence, and intimidate, and that isn't something I think is healthy.

@auspice Another thing on this is encouraging people to incorporate this material within their own poses, within reason, and this can strongly reinforce these elements within a theme.

Even if I'm not chill with people trying to make my play experience all about sexism, odds are good I'm going to reference it in my own poses in small ways: people picking up and leaving the table when she sits down, people giving her a wider berth on the street, some day she comes in and complains about having a harder time finding qualified crew, maybe a few other women hiding a tiny smile of pride about the existence of a 'Ms. Captain' even if they're still wary, and so on.

Again, it's possible for that to go too far -- as in, into that 'pity me' attention-whoring space -- but that tends to be easy to spot, and can be nipped in the bud as needed.

Random family mandatory fun for the holidays included a trek to a big dinner hosted at a local mansion-turned-event venue.

It is reputedly... haunted. Whatever, but we cheerfully chatted with the staff about it, including the venue manager -- and they were super happy to share stories, instead of just pretending that it wasn't a thing. (This was far more engaging than chatter with relatives I barely remember about their current crop of ailments.)

We spotted a legit secret door (it isn't super hidden, but nobody else amongst the kinfolk spotted it until we pointed it out) and they even told us where it went, why it was there, and what had been on the other end of it before the place was renovated. (Now, it just leads to a storage room in the cellar.)

I love it when what seems like it's going to be a boring session of mandatory fun instead becomes what would make a fantastic setting for an episode of Scooby Doo.

@derp said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@ganymede said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

I agree.
So, we're all here good with my taking the mantle of permanent despot, right?

I know you're trying to be cute or whatever, but this is a misuse of logical extremes, which is generally disallowed in reductio ad absurdum as being fallacious.

It's also not particularly helpful, when people are trying to make a genuine appeal for practical and reasonable change, for one of the admins in question to treat the topic so flippantly.

This is why I treated it as something 100% serious.

@Ganymede, if you want a direct example of how differently you are treated than others are here, reflect for a moment on how @Auspice was treated in the previous discussion about administration on the forums when she made a similar remark. People practically demanded her head on a spike, that she be removed from the modcorps, etc.

That difference is noteworthy, and you really should pay it mind. It is not a small matter and you shouldn't treat it as such.

@misadventure Thank you for sparing me the dreaded double-post to add that, since my awake-too-long brain missed that bit and was about to ramble it out in likely nowhere near as concise a form.

I see a lot of '...uh, is this a thing I should be worried about?' sometimes, so I don't rule that out.

Some folks only feel they should bug staff once something is glaring a huge, and want that sounding board. I sorta hate this, because I'm one of those folks that, when I staff, I'd rather hear about little shit that unnerves or bugs someone, since even if that specific thing is not actionable, if it becomes a pattern, that's a lot more easy to see and more directly address. But if they're going to sounding board it first, I'm not gonna hold that against anybody. I've been there, too, not sure if something is what I think it might be and wanting some feedback before I report something.

@auspice This really explains a lot of why they show a lot of centaurs wearing those twin braid hairstyles all of a sudden...

ETA: This conversation == Infinitely more entertaining than the eternal 'do vampires have sex and why' discussion. (PLEASE NOBODY START THAT ONE HERE.)