Best posts made by Lotherio

Just to not completely derail another topic ..

Its come up here that if Staff or STs or some other official type person on a Mu* isn't running things, players leave a Mu*. Just the way it is, nothing to do so they lose interest.

I am of the mindset that 'nothing to do' is more on the player than staff.

Personally, I think creating a game, creating theme, should be the ground work for inspiring player creativity to go out and do things. There should be potential for that to change the world (affect the meta), but affecting global scale (whatever scale the mu* is, be it a small village, a city, a nation, a galaxy) shouldn't be the goal, having fun RP should. I think staff should be available to quickly answer a page, 'yes have fun', or 'that will break the world'. If the latter, staff should say yes, do that, but this is how the world reacts (police show up, government military, etc. etc.). Less 'no, that will ruin 'my' meta'.

More and more the Mu* seems to be heading towards OTT, players need regular adventures and plot from staff to do things. Now, I come from a large metropolis (its in the top 40, not big by actual big city standards, but plenty of people regardless). Its not hard to find a TT game, its a matter of clicking with personalities. I think MU* is more for getting people together to find others to play with.

The only inverse to this idea I've heard so far is that a player then comes to ask staff what's going on with X, Y, or Z, which is player driven plot, and its a headache. I really don't see the problem with staff then saying, that is player P's plot, lets check with them real quick. Staff can react for the world after seeing a log or hearing about a plot easily enough with something like a BBpost as needed.

I think having things to do is more on the players, and this is only damned by staff that have restrictive policy on what players can do without needing divine (staff) intervention prior to doing anything.

@Thenomain said in There's Nothing to Do Here:

@Lotherio

1. @Sunny is right, because
2. Staff sets the tone.

3. Players participate (not wait).

@surreality said in Making a MU* of your own:

• What type of roleplaying do you want going on?

This, condensed to this:

• What type of RP do you want

... Is the answer to every thread.

If it doesn't quite match the place you're not sure about due to (insert reason!), you may want to find another place.

If you're building a place, it better have the type of RP you want or you'll lose interest faster; such as helping code for someone else, if you don't like the RP, you'll leave. Inversely, word to the wise for those finding others to code for them, if they are not interested in that type of RP, the coder will probably not stay until the job is finished.

! - OOC drama, IC conflict, staff control, squickyness, he said/she said, crossover, make up a reaso

@Rarest-Pepe said in How do you keep OOC lounges from becoming trash?:

If you want OOC rooms/channels that aren't trash, you're going to have to fill them with people who aren't trash. Bearing in mind that these rooms/channels are pretty consistently trash, we can conclude that our "community" has a lot of trash people in it.

Since banning all of the trash people from your average MU would destroy its userbase, the way to make sure OOC lounges aren't trash is to convince your players to grow the fuck up.

Good luck!

A fine display of some of the attitude the OP was pondering. So how do we get you to grow up?

@misterboring said in Something Completely Different:

Things have been almost totally inactive since the "fire" started. I don't know how much more simmered down it could get without just turning the server off.

It has been quiet, yes, but then 70% of the new threads since relate to the 'fire', someone's leaving because of, someone's trying to be funny snarky at Gany because of, or saying they don't get it something because of. Like, lets talk about games or something. I'm just saying from the outside, it doesn't all look good despite how many voices there might seem on the one side.

@seraphim73 said in Something Completely Different:

@lotherio said in Something Completely Different:

I mean not all Germans

You brought it up yourself, but I'm gonna say... maybe not the best logical leap to make. You might want to rethink it. You might also want to rethink the idea that many of the people who left did so because of either an evil, charismatic leader or propaganda.

If we're going to say a number of people expressing an opinion are right because a lot of people are saying it, then I'm going to point a group consensus that I do not think was right.

Just to point out, this is exactly what @Devrex was just saying. I never said everyone who left was following anyone or buying propaganda or evil. You said that about me. I even pointed out that those leaving are not all the same group, but it gives the perception.

@selira said in Something Completely Different:

Again, you can spin this in your head however you want, but that's what happened. Administration that was widely seen as unjust led to protest, which led to bans, and the combination of the two led to people walking.

We're actually in agreement on this, mostly. They no prior warning thing is questionable. Gany has shown that when she asks something to stop she means it. The only thing different this time is the vocal majority though they could skirt the line from my perspective.

I'm not spinning anything in my head. What went down wasn't pretty all around and I'm voicing that opinion, it doesn't look as good as some folks want to think it does. Majority or otherwise.

Lately for me, when I have time to staff a scene, I set limits. Like 10 mins between a pose or get skipped and such. I feel like when I do that I'm riding folks to hurry up and pose.

I like some of the ideas about utilizing player helpers and/or separating out the scene a bit. I would like to try to focus more on players in particular these days, make it their story. I've shied away from having one plot for a Mu where there is a finite end. It can fade away as interest fades, that's fine, but I don't like to have what seems like a railroad. That comes from my days of preferring open Campaign TTG when I run, let the players decide. I feel like I'm there in Mu*ing too, see what players want to do and how I can help them.

Rambling again, but players helping, or other staff helping to divide up large groups sounds like a good idea for the players too, they get a little more time to shine instead of lost in a large group.

I don't know if I've ever thrown in for a game but past RP with @bear_necessities and @krmbm has been good, they're great players all around, it was great to see them throw down on a collaboration like this. Gray Harbour gets my vote of confidence.

I'm not sure about the sandboxy part. Only because, to me, sandbox is more 'we have this game and there are evil dragon lords as part of the meta' and players in private don't like the meta so are using the system/game to play their version of the take down of the evil dragon lords or something.

Its more PRP friendly forward (for a positive label) but there is meta and Admins will help with hooks and leads to more RP for players if they ask; which they're saying but I've seen how well they weave it together.

Second on the RP searching. I know some places you go and try RP chan and don't get much, but the folks are all good here from what I've seen. Ask and ye shall receive, at least bites. Like crazy good collection of players that are responsive to RP seekers (like: I can't now, but later, lets work something out -- and they follow up/through on it).

Depends what you're looking for really.

CG and system is just an exercise in data management. It depends how complex you want it to be really. Most out there account for how the system as a whole will work; if +rolling is just throwing some dice, or if it changes the sheet (for wounds and such), how XP may be gained, etc.

I'd plug in FS3 if you're just needing a system to use. Folks will come on and say it sucks, but I don't think they have an actual easy alternative that is CG/system code to easily use, not as easy as FS3 is.

@arkandel said in How can we incentivize IC failure?:

@faraday said in How can we incentivize IC failure?:

@arkandel said in How can we incentivize IC failure?:

They are not being used. Most players don't roll in social encounters unless there's some kind of pivotal moment, usually around conflict. That's pretty rare. They do get used in PrPs when prompted by a GM but of course that, too, is biased toward those with access to such scenes.

Totally agree, but I don't see that as a problem. My games always contain this guidance:

Well it is a problem if the game runners assume their players are +rolling on a regular basis, and distribute XP based on that assumption.

This is a bit of a difference. For time-based XP rewards, the assumption isn't that players are even +rolling. The assumption that between RP sessions, characters are smart enough to do their own training/knowledge seeking/self improvement. Just because Player A can log on daily and pose bench pressing to get a strength increase at some point, doesn't mean Player B that only logs on once every two weeks is completely avoiding training. Even if folks only bar-RP, the character isn't a lush who sits at the bar all day (funny as that may be and some of us have played chars this way), they go out and pursue their interests off-camera. MUSH vs MUD, you don't have to do the menial stuff on MUSH, its assumed off camera.

ETA: In the time based XP/equal distribution, losing still has gains by still getting 'better' as a character/set of numbers.

Similarly when it comes to incentivizing failure, a lot of the scenarios leading to it cannot be summed down to a single roll of the dice. If the Council votes against your IC interests (which they do based on individual scenes leading up to it, the voters' private IC motivations, political maneuvering etc) what is the roll going to be?

This on the other hand gets at the heart of your initial question , incentives that aren't just XP handouts but are rewarding for all. How does one get their title reward when failing if it can't be summed down to a single roll. How is it rewarded and how do the failures get some incentive when only one person gets the reward in the end? I think some consensus (not all) is that it can't just be a XP bonus to the failing folks but needs to be more substantive story wise (and supported OOCly by the community in some aspect to give it more meaning)?

@Ghost said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Lotherio said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Ghost said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

I would expect more language about story/plot continuation and less about how polyamory is approached in RL.

I think its more that writing is a mutual sport, if we're collaborating on a story and I don't want curve balls, am I in the wrong. I mean with trusted players I know, they can throw any curve ball they want, but as mutual writers making a story together there has to be some trust?

You may be right for some people. I think for others this stuff cuts a little too personal or close to home. That it's all about "good writing partners" is a decent mantra, but when the end result is more akin to posting his text messages to his mother's Facebook and putting up an entry on "Dont Date Him Girl" Dotcom...I'm not so convinced.

That example at least is easy to see creeper and a reason I do not exchange personal info with folks on-line (except that I'm from Omaha, but try to find me out of 800K+ folks in the area). I don't even know where this topic is going with doxing or shaming, I just think its a common courtesy to be like 'hey, this char might be a cheater, that's not gonna cause drama' or whatever. Some people don't like that blind-side, though yes, posting to my mom about my character cheating is like nuclear strike blind sided; rest assured we'll probably have a laugh about it, my mom and I, but its beyond bad form, its creeper-tastic.

@WTFE said in UX: It's time for The Talk:

It has always been silly. There has never been a need for users to distinguish between hard-coded or soft-coded commands. There has been crappy software, maybe, which forced this distinction but ... that is the very DEFINITION of poor UX.

This made me laugh.

Aside from soft code varies from game to game? No reason at all to distinguish from hard-code, that is constant from game to game, and user commands, built within individuals game and unique (used to be) to those games?

I remember the days all users were expected to contribute their own content. Whether making rooms, their own vehicles, their own multi-descers, some new coded game for the game room, or new potential globals? Whether or not pool tables or bowling alley code on Mu*s was ever needed, users had liberty to make these and they did. So yes, there has been and still should be, a need to distinguish hard-code and soft-code commands.

Users should understand because WoD LA Nights has +taxi to get around, that doesn't mean CoD LA by Night will have any taxis at all. There is absolutely reason to distinguish.

I agree with a lot of what @Ghost is getting at. Its the age old diametrically opposed viewpoints. Roll vs Role, MUD vs MU^others. Various levels of intermixing that doesn't always work out as noted.

It also begs the argument, folks that roll hard dice and abide by the systems interpretation (ie playing Pendragon and failing my virtue then proceeded to critically succeed on my vice roll) ... and then role play the results would feel offended if someone said they weren't creatively telling a story and inversely, if fols are in a game that assumes some success level for easy to moderate rolls based on how many points they put in a stat or how they described it but expresses a level of failure and they sometimes like to roll to see if they fail and/or how bad they fail might feel offended if you say they're not using some form of game system or rules.

In the end it comes down to be clear how much of each MU is, but the needle on that guage is mostly jiggling back and forth between yellow caution and red danger such that we don't really know and as @Ghost mentioned, there is some kowtowing to appease a broader player base on most places.

That said, I do have some thought on a part of what was brought up. This could be in a breakout thread; 'incentivizing systems for the more story telling focused group'. But this thread is still incentivizing failure, so here goes ...

@ghost said in How can we incentivize IC failure?:

Don't mix. if you're making a "cooperative creative writing game", you should explicitly state so and do away with codifying extensive dice systems into your games (which will only confuse the RPG players), and instead incentivize cooperation over pass/fail results. Create the game, environment, and social structure as a showcase of writing and stories, sharing written works, and remove the game concept from the MU altogether.

Now there is lot of systems out there that steer away from RNG and dice towards a storytelling system of fairness in who wins and loses, and even plays towards the wrestling stuff @Ghost has brought up in the past (every takes a fall every now and again so others get some spotlight and the understanding is when you fall you do it to help the winner look good in their moment, honor system sort of stuff). Amber diceless had players bid on stats to see who was best/etc. and its assumed the person great in one attribute is always great but circumtances can change that. Other systems have come along to introduce good karma/bad karma and mutual pools of luck (players take a loss but gain a few successes to use for their big win, or win they win the GM gets a few successes to increase story challenges and adversaries). @Ganymede brought up CoD brought parts of this into the system with taking the beatdown for XP or some boon for later.

I've brought up this idea before but it was shut down, taking a loss for a win later in a static system of character representation not unlike comic places. Like strong char has lift 75 tons as their strong, they can fail a few times for whatever reason that builds up whoever is taking the win - kryptonite got them, the winner was stronger in that moment, they had the higher ground, the other one had belief in themself more than the char had in themself and clearly defeated them through this sheer will of strength. They take the good loss but later in the story when their friend is trapped under the 85 ton building, they have the karma pool to exceed their limit to save their friend.

It was pointed out folks would game the system for losses to only use them in the most crucial moments. However, I still believe somewhere is a medium middle ground where this could work in a MU.

That was a lot of rambling, not sure I went anywhere but there are systems for story-oriented folks just I haven't seen any make the transition to MU and maybe cause folks still hold onto wanting the game aspect (sometimes to let dice determine if they win or lose)?

Real quick my two cents. As a US daytime player I have never interacted directly with ba metaplot as most play happens in US evenings.

That said there is precedence for background metaplot that isn't affected by players but influences there day to day personal plots. For your consideration I offer the TV serirs MASH. The main characters never affected the outcome of the conflict though affected many personal lives of characters that came and went on the show. A similar example is Casablanca. WW II and all its politics is the meta, they had a more direct meta plot in the transfer of info between the politics, but really we're watching an interesting love story that is just heightened do to meta and meta plot.

No one in those examples affects the broader outcomes yet experience a lot of personal change.

Just a real quick two cents, again, at this point. I kept trying to delineate between Evennia and Arx. Arx is bringing in new players and its not because of updated technology; sure more kids know Ruby, they play the code games (which have been around for 50 years as noted. It is helping new players learn the system more than updated UI. Arx and Transformers: L&F are targeting players outside of MU and when they show up with the 'hello', they're being helped to make the transition rather than left to flounder. People who know are helping people learn what it is to MU. I think way back when, when I started getting into the topic, I responded to @Apos and renumbered some issues for barriers brought up to emphasize the social barrier.

I agree, helping new players make that transition is good, I enjoy working with new players. I'm in favor of whatever helps new players come in, see the exponential size of the sandbox for MU'ing as a whole (not one distinct persistent game, including contributing to the games they like as well as making their own games with improved tools of the trade).

I don't think MU'ing is wholly dying, every few years that seems a topic and yet MUDs still see hundreds of unique folks playing, many willing to pay-to-play still. MUSHes still crop up that pull in that number (I don't want that sort of problem ever). Heck, lately for me is the lack of 'unique' themes of late, the trend seems towards established cannon and theme more and more, but that could just be me.

@golgoth said in A new platform?:

Did you know that it is relatively easy to implement an @mail system where all of this @mail dude=<title>/<Stuff> or whatever is hidden behind a simple popup where you fill in the fields and vwoosh, @mail sent?

There has been a few replies along the line and @Thenomain may have extrapolated some of what I was after.

There are a number of forum and social media platforms that actually can replace in-game clunky systems like @mail or +bboards ... what if the webinterface had a frame with nodebb (or similar forum/social plugin) just like these forums. The frame could toggle on/off, come with size control, things finger touch-screen kids would be familiar with, easily customize-able graphic interface (my MSB is dark background with light text, easier to read for me, but heck get enough interested kids in something like that and they'll learn to design their own faces, add graphics, whatever). Then, instead of bboards we have categories and threads on the forum. We don't need mail, PM'ing works just the same, it notifies us already of new messages with that little red dot thing. We can click a user to get info on them and they can customize those pages. I don't know if anyone is creating divisions here with CSS to try and override the main CSS to really pretty up their profile pages, but I imagine something would be figured out with enough interest.

But it seems we're focused on re-inventing the wheel when web interface already has gadgets/wickets/platforms/extra/etc that could be made to work in a web frame along side a window client for the RP side that is the typical RP oriented things for the mush to work. There are tons of apps/gadgets/gizmos out there that could take a web frame and make it just as clunky as MUDlet, with options of control.

As noted by @Ashen-Shugar

A fully featured graphical front-end is just as hard as a fully-featured chargen or skill system is.

Right now what I think I'm saying is, I'm just trading one way of coding (PennMUSH softcode) for a more adaptable backend code (Ruby or Python or some derivative), throwing in a little more SQL or some other form of data manipulation to pull from server to web, learning a little more HTML/CSS to create some forms and such. I understand the code bits are easier for younger individuals to use as they're more familiar with it, assuming these changes create enough of a draw. But I don't know who its made any easier to set up and run a game, as noted again, graphical front end is more possible these days, but its still just as much work as a chargen/skill system. Is it saving any work, becoming easier? Or is it just adding more options that equate to more work?

I really don't know, part of the issue seems decline in the interest in reading and writing. (No @SquirrelTalk, I'm not saying ignore younger individuals interested in reading and literary arts/hobbies/entertainment). It just feels the advances are moving slightly away from support of a literary medium, not saying I favor a blank green screen and a command prompt and a do it yourself mentality (10 flash; 20 print Hello; 30 goto 10; run program; leave lab with program running knowing the next student will not know how to Escape the program).

I support Ares MUSH as an out of the box, easy to configure MUSH; I awaited its release for years, I look forward to seeing what others do with it. I'm good with FS3 as the primary system, I like it. Except when I want to customize the dice and skills, which can be done by by knowing or learning Ruby. Which to me, I've traded help files for every code command in the system being accessible while in the live text environment to learning back end code via other sites and tutorials; which isn't bad, my daughters are slowly learning Ruby.

So I don't know, is it evolving to something new and easier? Or is it a linear transfer from one way of coding to another? I completely concur Ares and Evannia are a step in the right direction of drawing newer interest by appealing to what they know, but it still takes that step of wanting to know and dealing with the amount of reading required to make the step. New players continue to trickle in, always have, but not in the droves and flocks of the hobby's hayday.

Sorry @surreality, a graphic interface with lots of options including a text window for the actual RP some where in the middle of it all seems like it will come out that way to me. Its no different than how we used to set up spawn windows in clients on the more mathematical gamey games MU'es in the 90s (I'm looking at you battletech), it was an eyesore, but we could customize it to display how we wanted and it worked for the massive overload of fast flowing information we wanted in a text based game played at that speed.

ETA: Sorry wall of text, I was trying to break your telnet buffer by going over 80 lines or something.

Self follow up.

In the transfer part of the fail for points, I envision the person failing writes a blurb that the other accepts as part of the code. Then, dependent on the level of failure the blurb shows in like finger notes for X amount of weeks. Like making a gossip but it's right on the person in the gossip. It is like a rumor, anyone can play off it. Whether it's red slap mark or social disgrace, fails carry weight in lingering effects others can see, use, hear about.

Fish tank as an allegory to space on a RPG-focused MU.

If you want live plants in a tank, you can't just slap some in your aquarium. It will upset the ecosystem and lead to hard to control algae blooms that makes it hard to see the focus of your tank, which was your fish you had established already in that micro ecosystem. For plants, you make a tank as a water garden and, once established you add a few fish as highlights to the lovely landscape you created. Google planted tank, there is 'room' for more fish in most of those tanks by basic hobbyist standards.

I rarely play WoD, just cause that was a baseline assumption of anyone who might disagree with the necro post that arose this thread from its grave. I played SW1 and a few other heavy coded space SW places, I played BT (less the RP ones like 3060, more the strategy game that was 3065 with random battles starting up all the time).

If /you/ want space, stop asking others to tack on space to their games. /You/ make the great space strategy game, then have RP as a highlight, and you may get what you're looking. Go back to googling a planted tank, most of those aquariums go against the rules of thumb for how many fish one can put in a tank (less than the rule of thumb). The plants are the space game (awesome landscape=awesome space play) and the few fish are the sparkling RP highlights to an already amazing backdrop and people can focus on what they want.

Oh yeah, secondary to the allegory, or part of it. The tanks is a closed space, if space is too open and there is meant to be some major RP/meta going on, it will be hard for the fish (I mean players) to find each other.

My favorite Marvel (disney) multiple alts actress, Alfre Woodard. Miriam Sharpe in Civil War (she lost the son in Sokovia) and my favorite, Mariah Dillard in Luke Cage. And a few voices I think in animated Marvel Series.