Posts made by Lotherio

@tinuviel said in A theme-less, CGen-less game:

@lotherio said in A theme-less, CGen-less game:

like some place to help new players to MU*ing in general

Are you sure you want the likes of us doing that? I don't want us doing that, and I'm one of the us.

Fair question. Though to be fair, there are a few voices here on MSB of late that have striven (grammar folks can figure out the right form of strive I'm looking for) to be friendly towards players that are new to MUing. I won't @name them, they can wander in on their own, but I'm sure we know the few that have made the effort to strengthen the MU community and have gone through great efforts go make MUing more newbie friendly, including development of new code entirely.

Another question is... why us? About this whole subject, not just the referenced part. Why MSB, and not some dude that happens to hang out at MSB?

Not being the one in that private conversation, I can only fathom why MSB. Though ... maybe its the most active social location relevant to MU* outside of MUD forums and as has been noted of late, the associated community of MSB has become more friendly than it has ever been in past iterations and certainly shines more than those other forums where mud slinging continues unabated. The activity persists here despite many social attempts that have failed to make MU*ing more popular?

Conversely, maybe it goes against the nature of MSB, as being the place to soapbox about various MU*s outside of them. Like, if admin were doing bad on MU the Sand Box, would some folks feel like they cannot voice criticism here (I know the regulars would, but what of the less vocal individuals)?

I think that's why it would come down to worthy of more discussion and not just random, very lightly administered, free-for-all sandbox. I'll second @Coin too, sometimes folks just have a craving to play something without building an entire MU*.

I just think the association with MSB would tie a sandbox style place to the most active community space relevant to MU*ing in general?

I’ll break silence as one of the few voices that would support something similar to this.

As its presented:

1. a) (interested) yes, b) (useful) no (there are a few social MU*s out there that offer something similar already)
2. No, people will not more or less handle themselves especially with little active administration. Most will, yes, but administration is needed for the rare bad apples. It might only be a very miniscule percentage, but without administration there will be creepers.
3. Sans few extra features, does codebase really matter other than preference of whoever it is that is elected to do codewiz stuff?

As presented, it will just look like MUSH or PUGGY or other regular social mu*s. Which generally has the same 8-16 people across the spectrum, thus making it humorous when one of them mavs the wrong window but half the people know what’s being said cause they’re in the other window too. Gateway(ORG) is set up this way (free sandbox rp, light admin, not heavily code reliant) and without the right leadership (admin or any for that matter) its up to players. And from the responses so for, that would be status quo; most folks that sandbox/freeform do so already with people they know and trust even at these places (or in other mediums).

I do support the idea, place to easily sandbox. But it needs a friendly community and to ensure community it needs some active administration to make it a community and some purpose beyond a place to sandbox would help give it direction.

Something like:

1. like some place to help new players to MU*ing in general
2. to help folks who enjoy the story telling side over the gaming side
3. to help some folks make friends who don’t yet have such a ready database of friends to draw on if they do want to freeform
4. for folks who like the gaming side it could be a place to help learn systems in a friendly environment without worry of some eventually ooc comments/snicker/whatever about being a noob
5. a place to advertise/track live games (in conjunction with the wiki you’re proposing)

A friendly place that could allow open sandbox RP could be good and beneficial, I’d be interested in contributing even. But it would take more thought on direction and purpose. But a loosely administered free-for-all could end up a train wreck, or it will just be as sparsely populated/active as all the similar attempts before it have ended up.

@warma-sheen said in Plot session duration:

TD;DR: Emotions are more complicated than violence. Violence is easier to codify.

I still wonder if a socially based MUSH could be viable (like Diplomacy board game or Mafia/Werewolf social/party game). Simpy because of this, complicated and some way to break it down to the psychology of it. As much as folks want it, I don't think dice will ever be a good replacement for role-playing out social situations including politics. If there was a MUSH that used dice for that too, what then is the point of even role-playing? Throw some dice then pose the results, 'ugh I was brainwashed into voting for other party candidate, my life sucks'?

@arkandel said in Good or New Movies Review:

@jibberthehut said in Good or New Movies Review:

Am I some weirdo who doesn't go see movies for it's message that may or may not actually exist or to compare to source material and just go... to be entertained and enjoy?

We're all weirdos here. We just bicker about our favorite flavors of weirdness.

Not weird at all, that's probably more the norm, just to be entertained. But some of us weirdos watch movie for message and content, and, to make matters worse many directors do put messages in the movies and have said as much. I blame Hitchcock for his strides in developing film language, among others.

@faraday I could be wrong, but @ThatGuyThere might be saying PM notifications, pop-ups, and other flashes or distractions that draw attention from the text window may be too much of a distraction. I don't think he's implying a new system/platform will, but it has that potential and he's content with his current experience.

@three-eyed-crow said in A new platform?:

When I personally talk about the potential of MUing it's in the context of games that have more persistent world support and more ability to centralize stuff like character stats and systems.

I look for persistent world support that keeps stories connected and I enjoy RP'ing with new people as it introduces random elements into the writing. My Mu'ing experiences have been entirely different than the majority it seems.

I like both seasons and the mixture. But most of all, I still like the 'live' performances by the musicians most of all and glad it continues. I like that they found a way to expand it beyond Harlem's Paradise this season for live performances (looking at you Ghostface Killah).

@arkandel Even with statless I'd hope there is more maintenance than just the chat services of discord/slack. I imagine, and I don't play on them, just devil advocacy program here, but something like:

The GM goes to RPG Directory or whatever to recruit their players: Hey I'm running x game on discord who's in, send me your sheets, we'll run regularly on x, y, and z day, otherwise you can socially RP between times all you like.

And done.

That's simplified certainly, but it can be done and I'm certain it is being done on larger scale than a TT group (4-8 players only); might take some searching but I'm sure its out there.

Secondary, if I tried that I wouldn't miss +sheets and XP spends if I tried that (if I'm really wanting to text game, I'd go play a mud honestly, I'm not and don't much, but just saying). I'd miss things like descriptions, room descriptions, locations, environment and such.

Meh, got me wondering if I should go slack or discord and try the RP with friends thing. All Mu' these days seem to want bigger focus on gaming only. I've played plenty of statetless Mu's that I have enjoyed, but they're the first to go it seems.

@puppybreath said in A new platform?:

My 16 year old son RPs on discord, but I think it's mostly sandboxing with his friends.

While this is the norm to my understanding, there is nothing to say that a discord/slack 'server/room/whateverthey call invite only locations things' can't be persistent with some form of staff oversight. I'm certain a number of individuals do use it as a OTT or VTT (your pref for correct term, but online or virtual table top) and the GM keeps it persistent.

In my view, its really no different than the persistence implied on a Mu* - which is up to staff and/or logs to enforce, not the vehicle itself.

And come on about the ninja thing. I get it, lightning and raiden and all can induce epilepsy or something but, remove the graphics and junk and its the same windows @friarzen is showing us (text window, chat window, ascii map window), it has some extra info on the sides that could be removed (pc and npc, but those are bits for MUDs with heavy combat focus, look at it outside the box). The point was there is already web client potential out there. I think that is MUDlet, a number of MUDs already use it. I think BATMud has the best interface, but can't find a good screenshot of that joint to show it.

@surreality said in A new platform?:

@ganymede Faraday isn't at all -- I'm just agreeing with that chunk of her post 1000%.

A few other folks are discussing the necessity of this, however.

I'm not saying those are necessities on my end, but those seem to be some of the goals others are after.

I think my boat is, its an upgrade, but the amount of work to set something up isn't changing. The change is the old grumpy folks like me can stick to PennMUSH (or preferred old code/system) until its dead, and the new places will be new players. Some middle ground folks will make the transition most likely.

Just for new platforms, I want some versatility. There is no demand by me for these things to happen, and I'm noting there are options out there to frankenstein something together. My focus is and always will be text window and my ability to emit. Not the /me jumps in water with the screen showing globally/locally: Lotherio jumps in the water. But my ability to simply write something and have it show to others, in a live persistent, shared environment format.

My initial quandary into this conversation is more, are we pushing more people out of these new updates who have been in the hobby compared to new folks coming in, I think that was missed cause I'm bad at getting to the point. I know most don't care who leaves, most of my early friends from the 90s have left do to regular dramas and other negative aspects of the hobby, but good for them as a few (like others we all know) have gone into the being an author thing with publications to show for their efforts.

@surreality said in A new platform?:

The big ASCII block in the middle of it is simply baffling, for instance.

There are better screen shots, that ASCII block is an extended in game map I imagine, not the right time to use the in-game commands to check the immediate area map or whatever it represents. It is a hot mess, I'd be good seeing a better design, but its not me, I hit my wall of wanting to learn code. I'm here for hobby, role-playing, collaborative story telling. Just offering opinions and thoughts.

@Arkandel

We either do all of it - 100% - over the web or it won't happen

I'm all for over the web. But why not use weblets and widgets and other API for functions the college kids will be familiar with. Why not ditch bboards and mail for some forum software similar to nodebb. I'd much rather PM and add to threads in this format than navigate bboards. And I'm adapt at their use both player and staff side. People are still surprised with the ability to reply to bboard posts and that's been around. They don't question how to reply here or on other forum/social mediums.

Edit: Beacuse (for the last paragraph), if we are spending time making commands for mail and bboards better in-games, it seems to distract from making the text experience better in some way in general and it can easily be replaced in some iframe or whatever through using some other program all together. If we're going to hack, why not hack existing stuff to fit the interface in stead of working from ground up on complete overhaul? As noted, unlike MMO's or even Iron Realms, no one is being paid to do it and there are not big teams that can accomplish this more quickly. I'd dare to say, what if the limited number of coding folks with the capability to do so actually worked together collaboratively on something new?

@golgoth said in A new platform?:

Did you know that it is relatively easy to implement an @mail system where all of this @mail dude=<title>/<Stuff> or whatever is hidden behind a simple popup where you fill in the fields and vwoosh, @mail sent?

There has been a few replies along the line and @Thenomain may have extrapolated some of what I was after.

There are a number of forum and social media platforms that actually can replace in-game clunky systems like @mail or +bboards ... what if the webinterface had a frame with nodebb (or similar forum/social plugin) just like these forums. The frame could toggle on/off, come with size control, things finger touch-screen kids would be familiar with, easily customize-able graphic interface (my MSB is dark background with light text, easier to read for me, but heck get enough interested kids in something like that and they'll learn to design their own faces, add graphics, whatever). Then, instead of bboards we have categories and threads on the forum. We don't need mail, PM'ing works just the same, it notifies us already of new messages with that little red dot thing. We can click a user to get info on them and they can customize those pages. I don't know if anyone is creating divisions here with CSS to try and override the main CSS to really pretty up their profile pages, but I imagine something would be figured out with enough interest.

But it seems we're focused on re-inventing the wheel when web interface already has gadgets/wickets/platforms/extra/etc that could be made to work in a web frame along side a window client for the RP side that is the typical RP oriented things for the mush to work. There are tons of apps/gadgets/gizmos out there that could take a web frame and make it just as clunky as MUDlet, with options of control.

As noted by @Ashen-Shugar

A fully featured graphical front-end is just as hard as a fully-featured chargen or skill system is.

Right now what I think I'm saying is, I'm just trading one way of coding (PennMUSH softcode) for a more adaptable backend code (Ruby or Python or some derivative), throwing in a little more SQL or some other form of data manipulation to pull from server to web, learning a little more HTML/CSS to create some forms and such. I understand the code bits are easier for younger individuals to use as they're more familiar with it, assuming these changes create enough of a draw. But I don't know who its made any easier to set up and run a game, as noted again, graphical front end is more possible these days, but its still just as much work as a chargen/skill system. Is it saving any work, becoming easier? Or is it just adding more options that equate to more work?

I really don't know, part of the issue seems decline in the interest in reading and writing. (No @SquirrelTalk, I'm not saying ignore younger individuals interested in reading and literary arts/hobbies/entertainment). It just feels the advances are moving slightly away from support of a literary medium, not saying I favor a blank green screen and a command prompt and a do it yourself mentality (10 flash; 20 print Hello; 30 goto 10; run program; leave lab with program running knowing the next student will not know how to Escape the program).

I support Ares MUSH as an out of the box, easy to configure MUSH; I awaited its release for years, I look forward to seeing what others do with it. I'm good with FS3 as the primary system, I like it. Except when I want to customize the dice and skills, which can be done by by knowing or learning Ruby. Which to me, I've traded help files for every code command in the system being accessible while in the live text environment to learning back end code via other sites and tutorials; which isn't bad, my daughters are slowly learning Ruby.

So I don't know, is it evolving to something new and easier? Or is it a linear transfer from one way of coding to another? I completely concur Ares and Evannia are a step in the right direction of drawing newer interest by appealing to what they know, but it still takes that step of wanting to know and dealing with the amount of reading required to make the step. New players continue to trickle in, always have, but not in the droves and flocks of the hobby's hayday.

Sorry @surreality, a graphic interface with lots of options including a text window for the actual RP some where in the middle of it all seems like it will come out that way to me. Its no different than how we used to set up spawn windows in clients on the more mathematical gamey games MU'es in the 90s (I'm looking at you battletech), it was an eyesore, but we could customize it to display how we wanted and it worked for the massive overload of fast flowing information we wanted in a text based game played at that speed.

ETA: Sorry wall of text, I was trying to break your telnet buffer by going over 80 lines or something.

@faraday True, and I agree.

But for UI, we're behind the 8-ball. Iron Realms who made the comment about 'the first wall of text is a turn-off' use some pretty fancy interface.

The top right is chat/channel window, below that is a map that can be clicked on to navigate, click a room you've been to and you autowalk there (autowalk isn't know, MUDS use aliasing to make quick commands much like some older MUs have done). Click an arrow and you try to move/walk/go in that direction. No need to type an exit or direction name. Those images at the top are quick commands for abilities. On MudClient app for smart devices, one can change buttons, its not hard to have a 'who' button that lets you know who is on line. I've seen text data bank scroll wheels to get to common command like tell or pose even, I've used MUDClient to Mu before All that character information stuff on the left could easily just be sheet and finger notes. Enemy information could just be IC info on another character who's name you click on.

It could be super slick, and has been seen in MUDs already. The comment about hitting the part where reading comes in still rings a bell with me of curiosity. Also, learning different page commands isn't an issue for younger audiences, if there is a will there is a way. Various MineCraft servers use a few different ways for communicating personally, because like MUs, there are different systems once can install on their server for communicating.

I'm sure there is a happy medium somewhere certainly. But in the same vein, introducing a Mu as a text based environment where reading and writing is required like upfront could also help, part of the advertising/image. We've known for years that some of the folks that wander in from other mediums start with like RP'ing on WoW or EverQuest or whatever MMO and the RP isn't enough for them and they found MU's. As much as 80s interface isn't for some people, there still needs to be an input for text to write into and an output to read what is going on.

@griatch said in A new platform?:

I remember a comment by one of the guys from Iron Realms (the company running some of the few remaining commercial MUDs), noting that they loose most of their new players the moment they leave the graphical chargen and are presented with the text interface for the first time.

This.

I appreciate the work to help evolve the UI/E (both player and staff side). But I think in the end its more ignoring the elephant in the room.

Literacy rates slowly rise (for the most part), and this is good. But, and a big but, the literary reading rates continue to decrease. Nearly 60% of US adults read at least 1 book/poem/play/etc. around the mid 1980s, and a couple of years ago, this dropped to nearly 40% (there is a 2015 Washington Post article on this). That statistic is was based on reading 1 literary work (book, novel, short-story, poem, play) within the past year. Not a book a month or more, just one book in the last year to qualify as literary reading. Only 40% of adults currently have read one literary work in the past year and this number is continually decreasing; and this includes on-line works/derivatives to my knowledge. I'm concluding that reading for entertainment and literary reading are the same and that any pool of new potential Mu RP'ers are in this shrinking group.

Then, take various elements people like in Mu, and there is probably for the most part, a better, quicker, more detailed equivalent done graphically. Create a World? Minecraft or some other crafting sandbox. Space mining? Elite or some other space mining app. Faction based combat? Pick your PvP MMO of the day.

I think somewhere, if there is a potential to increase acivity, that just RP, reading/writing/story-telling/collaborating/etc. needs to be more the focus then dice and/or UI. It can be shiny'ed up all we like, but I think the comment @Griatch pulled from the Iron Realms folk(s) was more nail on the head. I think if all the commands were the same, folks would still move right along to something else once they hit wall of text (ie, you have to read to play, there is no skip/easy button to that). We can have an app devided, one side could be a nodebb forum, and the frame next to it could be the text window, below that could be input line(s) and under the forum part could be clickable map with a finger notes on players toggle so if I click any player I see in the room or who, it shows over the map until I close it. It could be the slickest thing ever, but that requirement that it is a reading based hobby will still be a bigger barrier I think.

Personally if we started going more fancy graphical interfaces, I'd probably not go that way. I'd hold out to old Penn and RP with friends.

It feels like this part is being ignored in upgrades.

Tutorials and comments aside, there will still be some more questions along the process beyond what a tutorial may cover. There are a few social Mu's out there that can potentially help, depending on which code base you settle on. Let us know and we may be able to point you to further resources beyond what a tutorial may provide.

@jennkryst said in A new platform?:

@lotherio Versatility for it's own sake is problematic. Not to mention sometimes a command line is different because a coder just happened to write it that way (or may have been forced to write it that way because of things in the code, I don't know how that sorcery works).

@faraday brought up my other point: Computers revolve around the point/click interface (for most people, who don't go into the command prompt). During, for lack of a better term, the golden era of MUdom, people still had to do DOS run cmd whatsits.

When I came in, during the early 90s, the ability to code into the game and/or have entirely different game systems work within a Mu was the biggest draw for me, versatility. If that's problematic, then I'm a problem child.

@jennkryst

One of the draws for using MU to host games is, or was, its versatility. And yet, it is now the biggest downside?

The new places are a good progressive step, but I'm not sure this potential downside will ever make Mu's comparable to other forms of RP and collaborative story telling, no matter how many times we say its our preferred form/format.

@SquirrelTalk Not sure what we're disagreeing about, I was only noting other social mediums have RP happening right now, even live and persistent. They can include dice through applications that can be installed into them. I'm more interested in collaborative story telling too.

@three-eyed-crow said in A new platform?:

Ares and Evennia seem ultra promising and I'm curious if they expand the audience for this type of RP.

While I can't say the influx is ground breaking, I have as staff elsemu encountered handfuls of players who have come into Mu through both Ares and Evennia.

I know Discord and Stack have gotten some similar RP going, not quite the same as a Mu as pointed out by @Three-Eyed-Crow, but there are campaigns that can be found and joined on new social media that are similar in a manner. They utilize various dice programs that are easy to install and use.

Back in September/October, I pondered an idea of a system played more like a social game (mafia/werewolf), where points are exchanged (losses/successes) between players on mostly an OOC level but then the results are played out over a set amount of time. The whole idea was meant to make an easy to use system to support a multi-story telling/theme place.

I think I stand in the minority but the less gamey it is, the more I would like it Being able to socialize and RP in various theme, canon or original content sounds ideal to me; if I feel a certain way I can go play in someone's campaign for a spell as needed. The one system idea at that time seemed easier than trying to maintain different systems somehow, especial more complex game systems.

Noted in other conversations, the successful past mutli-game/table/OTT/etc. places were successful while it had a thriving community driven by staff to support socializing and, in turn, playing the various mini-games/MU's.

I'd be interested, but depends on complexity of using it, both in playing in the mini-mu's and in setting up a mini-mu I think.

@arkandel said in Managing Player Expectations:

I've had talks in the past trying to guess what possesses people to go to a certain kind of game looking for content that doesn't quite match what its theme is about.

I think what it comes down to is: its not the content (or genre) but the audience. They're looking for other players.

And player expectations vary between players; such as the noted random social scene versus some pretext prepared before entering social scenes. We've seen where this can go by some of the discussion on using RP chan and/or asking for RP; some folks want to ask for RP and then figure out where it goes organically, some folks will not engage with an RP request unless the requester has some detailed pretext for a scene already lined up.

I think of late what it feels like most of all is the amount of investment and much as in life, whether we admit it or not, a lot of players look for minimal investment with greater odds on return of the investment. Just I think MU-wise, return doesn't quite work that way for RP; perhaps coded return sure, there are games with measurable returns to investment with code but that's not quite the same as RP I think?