Posts made by Lotherio

@lisse24 said in Earning stuff:

I think we need to do a better job of finding ways to make random/social RP focused and meaningful from the outset.

It would be great to find a solution that could reward random/social without unbalancing scales; without becoming code heavy/staff reliant.

I can say from my perspective, when playing on others games, I look at recent IC info/news/events and know the stances on these things. I don't set my characters stance until I get into an IC discussion and I usually shift to offer some argument or counterpoint. Even if characters might otherwise agree and I see no way to shift my character to an opposite viewpoint (rare, I usually find a way to say something in opposition), I may offer a counter point on the same side (I agree the leader should raise taxes, but I don't think it should come from the commoners like you say, I think jousting should be taxed and jousters should only be allowed in tourneys with jousting permits).

Aside from that, I adhere to the RP Sparkle concepts; @Faraday still keeps this at the AresMUSH site: Here. The random social is a way to meet other players on a mush to figure out if you do want to develop more story and plot together. I do not mean relationship RP, I'm not out looking for TS, but if I want to run some plot as allowed within a given Mu*, I want players I trust when the story gets deeper. And I mean the player, we can be antagonistic, but the trust that neither will try to ruin the story, or derail things that are driving that story, for some personal attention or gain. I love to collaborate and I love when it develops organically; I do not like planning forward for some scene with a player. Even if we plan a scene that isn't wholly resolved, too much planning feels like we might as well just have determined the outcome in page or offline chatting. This could just be me, I need to not know or have some expectation of how a scene will turn out, I prefer not knowing and seeing what develops organically. If there is no organic chemistry, I know not to introduce plot ideas and hooks; I'll still take random scenes with people I don't click with, I just won't seek them out as much.

I think this was part of the issue discussed here or in another thread. Missing the random social scenes. It can end without development, but that's less on other players or staff and more on the players themselves I think. If I don't feel my character has developed in a random social scene after so long, I will bow out. But I will make effort to develop my char, even if in reaction to someone else's poses. If we're not clicking cause they're just doing goofy drinking, sloppy drunk at the bar, my character is developing some taste for not liking sloppy drunks. I'll probably get in a comment to the effect of not liking the situation. Who knows, maybe it will anger the sloppy drunk for a few terse words then I'll do my bow out even.

ETA: I was going somewhere with that. @Thenomain mentioned people used to get on to write and that's how I view random social scenes, my chance to write even if no one else is on board. And as @ThatGuyThere said, its how I gauge my interest in developing more story with another player on a game or not.

@arkandel said in Managing Player Expectations:

@surreality said in Managing Player Expectations:

I'm kinda with Lotherio on this one. It depends on whether they want to be involved with the metaplot or not, pretty much. They may just want to chill out and play the bartender who hears all the crazy stories that come in from chaos in the metaplot, or be a team medic who is just struggling with patching up the people who keep coming in bruised and bashed around.

I think there are two ways people view people not participating in the metatheme at large:

• ... Maybe they're running PrPs for each other .. this is usually viewed in a negative way.

What I'd be curious to know though is what some of such players' expectations are to begin with. ... the group who purposefully insulate themselves from the game and runs plots for each other ... why?

Until we have a convincing answer as to why these approaches exist it's tricky to manage the expectations that come with them.

Allow me to elucidate. I think it really depends on the level of insulation. Is this group doing private scenes for each other, or are these PrPs inclusive of any player that wants to join. Again, for me and my connect time, its because aside from my, no one is staffing and running events during my time online. I join other games because they have people to tell stories with. I can accept whatever meta unfolds that affects my PrPs and my PrPs are done within allowable guidelines on a given Mu* - they don't affect global/local scale. In @Surreality's example, I do enjoy playing that lone bartender not in the meta. Maybe there are alien invaders or some other vampire group is trying to take over the city, my limited PrP stuff might involve something low-key-scale; drug runners ruining the atmosphere of the bar, some new NPC vamp having a feeding problem, appeasing some new wraith, someone kidnapped, some locals with drug problems or a hundred other different things that have zero affect on the meta and zero affect on the game/grid/theme.

I don't see players running PrPs as necessarily a negative, and this is from years, nearly 30 now, of being a daytime player. I see more staff lingering during the day to answer questions, but really, I've yet to see one major arc/metaplot/story run by staff happen during the day. Heck even on my games I'm leery of this now, I was kicked in the teeth for doing it and not having enough stuff for evening folks (and really, what the hell, why can't I run a day-centric game, every other game is evening-centric).

@seraphim73 said in Managing Player Expectations:

On the flip side, I think that those players who are great in scenes, but don't really engage in the story need to be talked to also, to find out what's missing for them, and to encourage them to get involved (of course, going back to point two, once you find out what's missing for them, I think you either need to change it or let them know why you aren't changing it).

I'm on the fence about this one, thankfully its only a wooden fence about 2 meters high cause at my age a chain link fence would be difficult.

This more relates to the type of Mu* the staff are running. If there is one involved staff metaplot that everything transcends from I can see this. But inversely for me, if there is a player who is great in scenes but not engaged with the meta, I say find ways to encourage them to go in their own direction within theme. See what they need to keep going and doing what they're doing.

I say this because as a daytime player, most Mu*s aside from the ones I attempt to run are US evening centric. Literally. I can't express it enough. As a daytime player, if I'm not having my own great fun during the day, there is little to no easy way to be involved in metaplot usually. If I'm having super fun scenes with other daytime people and staff tries to corral me into their metaplot, I usually end up looking for another place to play. As staff if I see players being great in scenes I may ask if they need anything to help.

@wretched said in Now for something different:

@lotherio said in Now for something different:

Humans are zombie like hermits living vicariously through replicants/avatars.

Isnt that what i'm doing right now?

Hey now, I get up and go outside sometimes. When its not hot and sunny, too cold, or miserable. If its fair and 72 degrees and pleasant, I consider it at least.

@faraday said in Earning stuff:

If you apply that ratio to a MUSH though, assuming somebody plays 3 nights a week (which is pretty typical for an active player), you're talking about one action-oriented hero plot per month. That doesn't seem like a terribly unreasonable expectation for an individual player, and it's eminently do-able if you have a setting/character/player-staff-ratio that supports it. It's not practical everywhere, though, which is a problem if people expect it.

This right here, yes. When I'm playing, I would be completely happy with one action/hero/do-something session/plot per month and I play up to five days a week. I might like it played out with clues along the way, but the equivalent of one session a month would be plenty for me.

And for me, I prefer the option to do that one thing a month as a PrP, even if I'm running it for others. With less hoops to jump through. Its been pointed out this isn't the norm and there is an expectation on all action to be provided by staff. I'm weird that way, having mostly played US daytime when most places have zero staff or work idle staff that are only there to help players if needed not run things for players.

I agree and disagree with the thrust of this topic; everyone wants to do something special as its in every book, tv show, etc. I see it, but then, I still think its not just those other media.

I've been doing this weird thing lately when watching the really 'good' stuff; I blame Magnificent Century because a few months ago I was watching it and realized this is just a soap opera but I was still drawn to it (probably because of the time period). I was there 30 minutes into like the third episode in a row that was dealing with this special ring Hurrem got from the Suleyman and I reflect, how did I get drawn into this; then I kept on watching.

By really good stuff, I mean popular, a lot of it is drama between characters. The really good stuff on TV may be about one or two heroes who do crazy things, but the crazy things make up like 10-15% of each episode, maybe a little more in periodic advances of major arcs. Otherwise, I'm watching 30+ minutes in a 45 minute episode of over dramatized drama. And I like it, and I assume a lot of others do too, due to popularity.

Just it is coming down to more wanting the action in a Mu and less wanting to develop the dramatized drama. Or they make fun of it, ugh social rp, ugh BarP. My most enjoyed characters that have spent less than 10-15% of the time doing special things or being in spotlight have had longer bits of drama and character development outside of the action special things. Could be me, I'm less interested in any reward and more interested in the stories. Otherwise, I go to other medium to be the protagonist (I'd go play a video game to get that feeling).

Just a random idea. I've no time for anything other than where I'm at but, if this came up, I'd play it. Leaving it out here, who knows, may inspire someone down the road.

Changeling Sci-Fi .... instead of being altered humans or half-breeds or something, players are the fae. An experiment has gone awry. PCs are thrust into a high-tech world beyond our own, maybe humans live in virtual space and drive around androids like Replicants (Surrogates is the movie I'm thinking of for this), mingling with AI bosses/robot overlords and not realizing it. Not quite Matrix, something similar to Ready Player One, but constantly living between Replicant interactions and a sort of VR. Humans are zombie like hermits living vicariously through replicants/avatars.

Its the lost in space/swiss family robinson/etc. genre/brave new world. Lots of details to work out, just a concept that sounded fun. New players arrive from the aftermath of the gone wrong experiment on home dimension, but its a one way ticket to this world.

I'm in the opt in/out group.

As for Joe jumping into a public room with Bob and Mary, then posing without knowing what's going on is more on Joe than the code though. I mean, that its not raining or not could be the less vital part, if Bob is bleeding out after a gang fight in the middle of the street and Mary is an EMT trying to resuscitate him. Its half as much on Joe to say, what's going on as it is for Bob or Mary to say I'll include a scene set in my pose for you Joe. Before other comments arise, I am in the group that public room = open to any who show up, especially if there are locations to go if Bob and Mary want to play the near death experience scene without interruption.

Just that the coming to a room and posing in without some pretext is more the issue than ambiance/weather/day/night code with the example.

@apos said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@lotherio I think that was more because saying I mischaracterized an argument is similar to saying someone was disingenuous, so if the latter is an insult then the former would be also. I think this underscores that it is difficult to talk about this stuff in a civil way that doesn't spiral.

It is very understandable that any accusation of not doing work or that their creations are derivative is insulting and unfair. I really think that sort of thing is unnecessary and very unfair to creators, and you and Faraday in particular do tremendous work, but it is also extremely difficult to talk about any of this in a way that someone doesn't take personally.

I am not in all threads. Just someone saying 'I was called disingenuous' with a reply of 'literally what' reads in straight forward context as the reply being confounded that someone was insulted by being called disingenuous. I don't have the full context of course.

And of course to further the point of how these things lead to dumpster fires, in comes jokes about genitals and mocking what is insulting and mud-slinging. Like, in a few pages, there will be popcorn gifs to help further illustrate the slippery slope that is being discussed.

@kanye-qwest said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@faraday said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

And the final straw was someone calling me "tiresome and disingenuous"

literally what

I think this right here is the point, its not constructive and means to belittle how insulted one felt I suppose? Its just a little stretch from actual name calling and while the words in quotes <name calling> can be switched to anything to help illustrate the differences .. at what level of worrds does it become unacceptable. Hamilton was shot over name calling; sure, it was a long rivalry, but near the end it was name calling - Hamilton called Burr despicable in their rhetoric and it escalated from there.

I stream my music (vinyl) on a 54 Philco record/radio table.

Not mine but similar finish:

That or pandora on most smart devices.

@arkandel said in Valorous Dominion:

@lotherio When are the murderbot character generation rules getting added to the wiki? Asking for a friend.

I'm not sure what the murderbot character generation rules are. There's no chance of a character dying in the Pendragon Rules during CG? There was chances for father/grand fathers and such to die if using expanded CG to define what happened with them. There remains a small chance during winter phase to die (due to attribute loss) but in current edition, sickness and plague do not show up in random rolls. But maybe i'm missing something in the question too, I confuse myself half the time.

Here's even more discussion of non-combat:

Non-combat from the KAP forum.

I use the other skills to determine if an NPC becomes open to intrigue/influence. The request geared towards traits/passions is another good appeal. The game is open for intrigue. We had an old squires game a little that Greg was in/mostly observing back in Yahoo groups that involved intrigue. The skill to impress someone has been written into several published adventure from orate and courtesy to playing an instrument. Still error on the side of player intelligence but there's a wealth of opposed rolls one can used for social encounters.

Quick follow up. We'll look at a build nexus in ooc rooms. This would allow insertion of places by players as well as ambiance without requests. More creativity. Their is an in game version of +view as well, could add individual item descriptions too even. We'll see about getting something set up along that route.

@kay said in Valorous Dominion:

@Lotherio I keep forgetting to ask, any chance of you guys making the standard kind of build room for players to just dig and desc their own rooms that you guys can just review and then link to the grid? It might just be my own preference but requesting the build and the descs you want feels awkward, especially if you like a bit more detailed stuff.

On that note I have asked in game a few times but I think you guys were swamped: where on the grid can palazzos go? When I explored it looked like all the current ones are linked to two specific spots on the grid. Is that the only ones or are there others that could be used?

Galileo and I will talk about the build thing, I can't decide it on my own.

It can be anyplace on the grid, those two locations just seems to be the preference so far. There is a map on the wiki, http://valorous.wikidot.com/theme:matora . Any place is welcome the larger buildings are in those areas, as well as on the west side of the river there, but any place is open for locations.

Real quick - stealth falls under Dex. A sneaky char may make a dex roll vs alertness of potential observers. If I knew anyone on game needed this from the books, I would of gladly responded with the information, my apology that its confusing. Alertness is broader than this, as it can be used to simply spot something out of the ordinary, or notice something that may be important amidst a raging battle.

Information gathering falls under a few skills. This includes Intrigue and Manipulate. Manipulate is a region specific skill that is the same effectiveness as Intrigue. Intrigue is picking up on subtleties in a room, knowing where to hear gossip (servants, the markets etc.), or where to find information, its a nicer skill than Manipulate. Manipulate returns the same but its more about manipulating the usual subjects to get them to give the information you are seeking.

There are a lot of skills that seem maybe pointless - orating, composing, dancing, etc. I'll use a quote I picked up from a Kushiel game once; the castle court is the medieval equivalent to the mall. Which was funny, but in some ways true, going to the open parts of the castle to mingle and socialize was a thing to do. These skills are sort of the 'golf course' skills of the nobility. In setting up a social contest/challenge, it might take more than a fast intrigue roll with an NPC, maybe telling them a tale will gather their interest (orate), maybe dancing at some event will entertain one enough to get to that meeting where Manipulate or Intrigue may be more relevant.

+Requests are there in Valorous, we've told no one to use them until it seemed like others were missing out and we put up the bbpost as an indicator to please use that. I know some staff and requests on other games may make some folks gun-shy, but its really the OOC tool to work with staff to figure things out, much as just asking the GM in a TT game what would be needed to talk the merchant into reducing the price when there is no apparent haggle skill.

Econ system and House system needs more explaining. Some of it has been on a hard to find page on the wiki called House Rules, which has been under the Game tab along with a few other things specific to the game. It does need a better explanation and this is something we are working to address. Layout of the wiki is going to be addressed going forward, we have a great volunteer working at this and from what we've seen so far, it looks great.

There may in the end be a lack of some definition. There isn't a set limit of 'this is a game, these are its boundaries'; we're shooting for open role-playing and we don't want limits but we want players to learn what little there is and grow from there. I mean, maybe someone will want to assassinate one of the Emperors at some point, I don't know. As staff we're there to ponder what any number of infinite possibilities will work towards such ends and how it might be possible so we can respond to proceed in that direction.

I know the house system is questionable. I want to point out we've always intended for periodic skill gains outside of Valor/Reputation, similar to Winter Phase, but rather Seasonal. Technically in one or two seasons, those using the econ system will have enough points in House Skills that the chance of 'debt' to the state will be removed. Barring a series of super bad roles, everyone will just make gains for trade or use in building additions, the debt is reflective of a new house starting and its meant to simulate house building in the game from the ground up rather than just coming into well established house (even though thematically they are well established).

ETA - Okay that wasn't real quick, sorry. Similar, all criticism is fair and valid, we do need to know where we may be failing or where we can improve.

@bored Your misreading it as defense with unwillingness by staff to change. I was correcting that spamming reqests and 1 request to gain 1 resourcese was not how it works. Not to argue put to prevent jobs queue from blowing up on us. I can take criticism my undergrad is studio art, I've had far worse criticism. I'm not offended by any of this here.

@bored said in Valorous Dominion:

; if you can spend 1 resource to get 1 resource + change near instantly (which @lotherio seemed to imply was true for your action)

This has been posted. After Cristofano received some house reputation, I made it public so everyone would know. It's work in progress, I stated it could be altered, if rep rolls like candy and commodities become devalued this could change. Its not complete but how it's played will determine its worth. 1 commodity spent is 10 house rep, getting visitors at such an event increases the rep earned. Inversely it costs more rep to get a commodity, 20 from available to get 1 commodity.

Cristofano didn't spam a ton of requests, it may have felt like that, but others did more. And it's not spamming its a communication tool between players and staff. Please don't be gun shy to contact us in game, we're happy to help. He went after ones that interested him and had very lucky rolls against npcs. Half a dozen or more all made Prince requests, his roll beat them. He crit successed to impress the Prince, another Sabastino impressed the Prince. In a tally of houses and success to Sabastino tallied the most social victories against the npc so to speak.

This isn't defensive it's outlining the process. We'll work to get this from bboard to help files and wiki to keep it transparent. We could use more help, I'm trying to finish plot system code and debug as bugs are found. The plot system will help with transparency as it will show possible rewards for interacting and incurring favor with npcs and will be more clear on how to use it, with comments from staff on needed rolls our actions when folks pick up such plots.

No, no one paged and asked. They submitted +requests to info mill as noted by @auspice and we as staff responded to +requests. Not trying to be defensive, but the words, though not intended to be attacking, are implying staff could be making favorites. We don't everyone's getting the same treatment, which could be better on my part.

Honestly, I'm rooting for @bored's groups, I am glad their on the game, I'm glad Corso is on the game with them. I said we have good players on the game and mean it.

They systems were not posted on the game or wiki. This is my fault. These are developing systems as I've tried to indicate. They have been said in the coming soon, I am sorry for not getting them into help or on the wiki. The wiki is slow at the moment as folks have indicated they would like to see improvements, we've offered for input and help, and someone is working on that. It looks awesome, and we'll check with current players before any transitions this time around.

I'm not blaming the player base for anything, I'm willing to admit I can give more info and am glad to do so to anyone who asks. We haven't given unfair treatment to anyone. My fault for not having everything out there, realizing this, I absolutely posted that +request is out there (its in the help files unlike other needed help files). If I put out all the theme, I'm worried just the same it would be met with the other side of the spectrum 'too much theme don't like it'.