Posts made by ThatGuyThere

@Arkandel said in Alternate CoD/WoD Character Growth / XP Systems:

@Ganymede What I never understood is what the objective of having linear spends was. What was they hoping to get by it? Simplicity? Because it's not that hard to explain you spend '<x> XP per dot' to raise a stat to <x>, surely.

It just... makes no sense. Learning first aid is easy, reading a few books on biology is harder, going to medical school is harder still... all the way to becoming a world-class surgeon which is pretty damn hard. Why make each step cost the same? It's counter-intuitive.

I think the goal was to take away the incentive to min max in c-gen because you would be at an advantage numerical if you did so.
Granted i prefer the old way as well and if you wanted to take away the min maxing rely on the storyteller/staff or best option yet have the same exponential costs in c-gen that you use for xp.

Edit: Sorry posted while reading instead of waiting for the end so did not realize three other had answered the pretty much the same way before I did.

@ShelBeast said in Alternate CoD/WoD Character Growth / XP Systems:

My point still stands. Just because there were "expansions" that allowed it, the baseline game has a very clear and definite limit. That limit is level 20. I think in 4th it was level 30, but I don't think they ever did the whole "Epic level" bit. I didn't play it much. Oh. And in organized play, that level limit is.... 12, I think? And in 5th Edition, you can't have a stat above 20, if I recall correctly. It's been a bit since I've looked at the book.

How does one tell the difference between an expansion in your words and something that is part of the base game? This would lead to all sorts of arguments on how you define which book s are part of the base? I for one would love to see a WoD game that disalllowed anything that was not part of the core rule book for each splat. I rarely make the odd things and the wailing and gnashing of teeth from others would be great. ( for both meanings of great, in large quantity and for me in providing amusement)

Also I am not arguing there should be no limits. For the most part unless you let people buy power stats to 6 the limit on all stats and skills is five. I don't think anyone has argued for letting folks regardless of xp break game rules to spend it. Hell I am very much in favor of limits Gnosis, BP, PU, Wyrd, whatever Sin-Eaters have, whatever Prometheans have, etc to 5.
So far no one has mentioned my preferred method of solving the too powerful problem , give xp out slower. Nothing annoy me more on a game than having heaps of xp but having to jump through hoops to actually use it.
Now yes giving out fewer xp will make your game less popular, so will any of the other solutions as well. If you have spend timers some folks will be less likely to play your game. If you have a cap it will make some people less likely to play your game, (Me included while a cap would not cause me to rule out a game it would certainly factor into my decision to play on said game.)

@fatefan said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:

The "four color" descriptor, as I understand it, was initially meant to distinguish comic books (printed in CMYK) from black-and-white pulps/magazines.

That was the initial use and meaning, though as this thread shows that has diverged.
As a self professed comic nerd who talk about comics with diverse groups of people I have heard it used both way that it has been in this thread frequently.
Interesting note the four color process is why Hulk is green. Marvel had him gray initially but could not get a consistent looking gray so they changed it to green in his second issue. Much the same thing happened with Ironman as well as his original gray armor was quickly turned gold.

@ShelBeast said in Alternate CoD/WoD Character Growth / XP Systems:

@ThatGuyThere

To use D&D as a an example, the game is actually built with a cap with no advancement. 20th level, bro. Can't go past it. But you're free to keep playing past hitting it.

As Derp said there was a whole book about it, in regular old fist edition it was the Immortal Rules set. Basic was 1 to 3, Expert from 4 to 8, not sure on the other sets for the other level.
In the D20 edition it was the Epic Level Handbook.
There is not one yet for 5th edition but one never knows.

@Kanye-Qwest
You forgot to mention the city was mostly populated with alien plant people.
Or had the Bryne Submariner series been forgotten or ret-conned since then.
And in the bagging on Iron Fist let us not forget the old Power Man and Iron Fist was pretty ground breaking as a series Not only did the African American character get first billing it was one of the few instances in any media in the late seventies were you have a white and black character acting as equals even with the white guy often deferring to the black guy.
That said I would much rather see a Shang Chi series even though I likes me some Iron Fist too.

@fatefan said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:

So, it seems to be pretty loud and clear that (1) OC-focused games are the way to go (I know some said OC-emphasized, but let's go all in on that regard, for now) and (2) there should be a clear and consistent theme/tone for the game.

So, if you don't mind me asking another question: is there a preferable type of comic environment/atmosphere? That is...

1. "Four color" with brightly colored spandex-clad heroes
2. "Street-level" pulp/noir with low-powered or unpowered vigilantes
3. High-concept, globally impacting paragons
4. Something else entirely

I would vote either one or three, even though on superhero games I tend to play non-powered types they are definitely more in-line with Solo Avengers era Hawkeye with the bright purple and trick arrows then anything that is normally considered street level.
Though I do loves me some high powered world shaking stuff, a la Morrison's run on JLA, whcih also had my favorite version of Batman and allowed other non-powered folks to have a significant impact. (Huntress and Oracle most prominently but also Catwoman in her brief appearance. )

@Ganymede said in Alternate CoD/WoD Character Growth / XP Systems:

@ThatGuyThere

CoD does have that problem and weakness, sure. I would argue that you should toss Languages into "Academics," as Supernatural Lore gets tossed into "Occult," but I digress.

I would love to see this. Sadly White Wolf and Onyx path are both made up of Americans who seemingly do not realize how prevalent having more then one language is in lots of the world.

I did not explain what I meant by "mechanical growth." By that, I mean "an increase in total XP spent on the PC." I omitted that when I jumped to my argument that there should be mechanisms for "mechanical change," such as a re-spec. So, in response to your bullshit claim, I'd amend my statement to: no form of role-playing requires an increase in total XP spent on the PC.

That I can agree with. It is not to my tastes but I can accept that as true.

Of all of my previous reasons for wanting to cap growth, I strongly lean on the idea that PCs should not be able to effectively eliminate all of their weaknesses, which is what unlimited growth permits. If a PC at the limit learns a new language, then they should be able to shift their expenditures to permit that change. Of course, the change means that the PC sacrifices some other ability or merit, but that's not unreasonable, e.g., I probably used to have Athletics 2, but, thanks to age and lack of practice, that's probably down to a 1.

Again while this is not to my tastes it becomes more of a taste issue. The logic and modeling of reality behind it is sound and using the language example I seem to fall back on too much' in RL I used to speak German well, as in able to converse with natives without real hindrance well, then due to not having had cause to do so in nearly a decade I cannot really anymore. Yes I can still understand it some and read it slowly but if I tried to talk to someone I would sound like a slow third grader at best.

From a taste perspective I will likely never be on the side of caps. From a gamer perspective my question would be how to you prevent the game with a cap from becoming a bunch of folks with near identical builds? I know if I was on a game with a cap the temptation to say screw what my character would be motivated to learn ICly these points are a limited resource I need to use them for maximum effect.

@Ganymede said in Alternate CoD/WoD Character Growth / XP Systems:

@Lithium said in Alternate CoD/WoD Character Growth / XP Systems:

I also find it somewhat amusing that anyone, anywhere, is telling people that they're doing pretendy fun times /wrong/ when they are having fun. Some people enjoy increasing the size of their character sheet.

I feel the need to clarify my previous comments. My argument is aimed at an implicit argument in this statement:

@ThatGuyThere said in Alternate CoD/WoD Character Growth / XP Systems:

In short I enjoy RP very much, but the type of rp I enjoy is the type that pretty much requires mechanical growth to go with it, adventuring, discovering new shit, etc.

That argument is that certain RP requires mechanical growth, which I've previously described as "advancement." My response to that is: no form of role-playing requires mechanical growth.

Sorry even though we are in the constructive section I will call Bullshit right there. In some systems there are advancements that require mechanical advancement WoD for example if my character learns a language. That requires depending on old or new spending on either Linguistics knowledge or a skill. If I play my character as knowing Mandarin and Mandarin is not on his sheet that is cheating regardless of me rping him learning it, even if I have a dozen logs of scene with him leaning from folks, struggling with learning how to draw the characters, whatever unless the dot is in the right place on his sheet he does not know the language.
Or if my character learns that vamps or werewolves or whatever other beasties exist or bits of real info about him, that is either an OWoD lore or covered in NWoD occult. If I cannot buy that then something has to happen like a head injury to explain why he would forget what he just learned because there is a term for role playing out skills not represented on the sheet that term is again cheating.

I personally do not like respecs at all too much like ret-cons for my tastes. It is fine that the re-spec option exists for those that like it but if that is the option versus a hard cap to me they are the same things.

@Ganymede
If I do not enjoy RPing why would I play on Superhero games where there is not system?
I do enjoy RPing, I also enjoy the mechanics of game systems. Trust me I buy lots of them I know I will never play jut to take them about and gaze at the guts of the mechanics.
You can enjoy playing a character at an xp cap all you want but the very examples you use are the types of RP i do not enjoy.
I have played mentor/ students scenes on both ends and while I would be find having my character ICly be a mentor for someone, any and all teaching scenes would be glossed over to the extreme because I find them eye stabbingly boring. You also mentioned a political mini-game for folks at the cap to do, that is well and good but again not something i have any interest in. I have yet to see any political play on a MUSH be above the level of office politics.
And yes I think WoD has serious issues with things at high xp, there is no coincidence when PC hit the 200 xp mark that i take that as a sign to begin the wrap up of a table top campaign when I run them., yes even if I have story ideas unused.
In short I enjoy RP very much, but the type of rp I enjoy is the type that pretty much requires mechanical growth to go with it, adventuring, discovering new shit, etc; being a mentor or becoming politically active in a big picture is what I have my character retire to do after the end credits have rolled.
As I said I would play on a game with a cap just that once I hit that cap I would retire the character and start another. Just like I when I hit the end of the Franchise mode in Madden I smile and say that was fun, which team should I start up with now.

@Ganymede said in Alternate CoD/WoD Character Growth / XP Systems:

Thanks, @Derp.

@ThatDamnGuy

I think you mean to talk to either me or @ThatOneDude since according to the profile @ThatDamnGuy has never actually posted.

For me it boils down to I have no desire to play a character that is mechanically stagnant. RP is great and the focus of an RPG but the Game part is just as important to me.
I have no problem with trait based comic games and even have played on them off and on over the years, but they are not the same sort of beast to me as a game that uses a system.
To use D+D for an example with the Fighters not being Mages (Well to an extent in fifth edition they can be with the Eldritch Knight path) that to me is a far different statement then telling my hey we are gonna cap your totals levels at X, but keep playing after that.

@Rick-Sanchez
No the reveal happened when they were out of town on a mission and arrived to find their sanctum being renovated, when they talked to the construction foreman they learned it had been sold to someone putting in a Starbucks.
The Killing of the mastermind villain happened a couple of sessions latter when they tracked him down.

@Rick-Sanchez
They did eventually but it is not like he did the reveal in person.

@Coin said in The State of the Chronicles of Darkness:

@Arkandel said in The State of the Chronicles of Darkness:

@Coin said in The State of the Chronicles of Darkness:

Inaccurate. Scrutiny takes a long time. You can glance at someone with mage Sight and if they have some weird shit going on on the surface, sure; but as far as actually scrutinizing them, it took a lot longer. It's just that people don't read the book and also think you can someone get away with staring at someone for a full minute without the person going "hey, what do you want?"

Scrutiny? That's nothing!

Certain players were endowed with PC vision, allowing them to distinguish between the millions of random NPCs in major metropolitan areas (who'd never get stared at either for three seconds or sixty) and the special few who, despite being strangers, merited a hard staredown for being actual PCs all on the merit of some superficial excuse - maybe they 'made a weird comment' (because there are no oddballs around in cities) or 'dressed funny' (unthinkable), but they got examined by the convenient power that let you know things about them.

Now that's a power.

Best way to get something under a Mage's radar is have your NPC act totally normal while other PCs get all their attention.

I did a variation of this in the Mage table top I ran. The actual mastermind villain was known to the PCs the entire time but since he was the helpful sleepwalker with no unusual powers they went to him all the time to get advice on their plans and even gave him power of attorney to handle their financial matters so they did not have to deal with it. When he did the villain reveal that he now owned all their stuff they hated me, until I showed them my beginning of the campaign notes where I thumb nailed his plan then they hated themselves for never looking closer at him.

@Lithium said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:

@ThatOneDude I contemplated using FATE for my super hero game, but there's some real backlash against Fate games I've found. It's kind of odd. The only successful FATE based game that I've found (I haven't really looked mind you) was Dresden.

Fate gets a lot of backlash from those with rules heavy tastes as being all that is wrong with modern gaming. I have not noticed this much in regards to mushing but more in RPG communities in general.
My own tastes tend to vary with mood and intent of the game I tend to like both rules light and rules heavy but not rules medium. The only system I can honestly say that I have played once but would never again is Savage Worlds.
For fate on a MUSH, I think the lack of it appearing is the lack of demand for a generic system. Most mushes tend to be based on existing settings, a lot of those already have game systems with them like WoD, and for those that don't there is FS3, FS3 is not to everyone's tastes in some aspects but if you have a game you want a system for it is free and fairly easily to install and get running, where as far as I know there is no ready to go Fate code package ready to install so making it has to be done from scratch which is a lot of work.

I would prefer some sort of mechanical system. Though that runs in to the problem of deciding which one and the one that seems to get used the most, Mutants and Masterminds, is not one I care for.
Other then that I would like some persistent continuity, that was one down side of HeroMux for me. Once a character changed hands a lot of time the past on screen history was thrown out. Now I can understand wanting to take the character in a new direction. I did that myself when I took over a feature but I kept the past history then just moved on from there.
Yes I know comics don't do a good job of continuity themselves but that is one of the reasons I have stopped reading them.

@golgoth
Read it never played it. Honestly not sure what I think of the system it sounds wonky in reading but somethings things that sound wonky end up playing well and things that seem alright on a read end up being wonky in play.

@Jaded said in Good TV:

I think it should have been on CW to begin with really. The audience for CBS is mostly those who enjoy the police procedurals like NCIS and Criminal Minds. Or the sitcoms like Moms and The Big Bang Theory.

I was about to post confusion about why Supergirl would be in danger of cancellation as it was the best thing on CBS this last season,then you reminded me that while I am nearing the target age bracket for CBS, I am not really their target taste bracket except for my love of NCIS, which I fully blame on Mark Harmon.

@Arkandel said in What do RPGs *never* handle in mu*'s? What *should* they handle?:

I've been on MU* before where no one rolled outside PrPs. And I've played games where people did roll somewhat often but almost always for powers ("Auspex! What are your feelings?") rather than mundane purposes (you'd rarely see perception rolls like Wits+Composure for instance). I've even been on spheres where it was considered rude, a douche move, if you rolled at people - the rules never made it consent-only but the community had, at least for that particular span of time.

I have run into this dice aversion some places. even to the point where I was chastised at by the other person in a scene cause I rolled self control (it was an oWoD game and i was playing a type that have virtues) to see how my character reacted to a temptation. It was not that the other player disagreed with the mechanics of the role but they "did not want mechanics to intrude on a scene." To me it was a situation where it could go either way and both options lead to interesting RP avenues so I thought it was the perfect time to let mechanics shape the story.

@Warma-Sheen said Because players don't want to play against each other . They want to play against something that makes them feel powerful cause they're gonna beat it down, usually with a much smaller chance of death, then brag about it to other PCs.

Or players don't want to play against each other because they do not prefer PvP.
I play these games to tell a story not compete with anyone. Your post comes off a lot like everyone who doesn't play like me sucks. I prefer PvE not because i want to feel powerful or win, and trust me in actual play there is about as much chance of death in either case. And that is very little.

@faraday
Not sure it is a culture thing it is generally polite in WoD as well to wait for a scene set and respect the scene going on as you join but that does not mean it always happens.